Is There Anything That Could Convince You That Mormonism is Not True?

From a question asked by John on 10 May, 2010 here:

And, what, if anything would lead you to the conclusion that Mormonism’s foundational stories, personalities and writings are not what they claim to be?

Yes, there is. What leads me to believe they are true is God telling me so, and so the way I figure it, the only thing that could convince me otherwise would be for God to tell me that what he has already told me is not true. But that’s a bit like the age-old question “Could God microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?”

As far as any other sort of evidence such as writings or lack thereof, scientific “evidence”, etc., no, I don’t really see how anything else could convince me, because it wasn’t by those things that I was convinced of the truthfulness of the LDS Church in the first place. Not that things couldn’t come up that might give me pause–I’m sure there are other things I’ll learn about Mormonism that will make me think “Really?! What the heck…?” but in the past when I’ve come across such things my thought process is “Hmm, I wonder what the explanation is for all of this?” as opposed to “I don’t see how the LDS Church can be true anymore.”

Comments

  1. Is there any way that you might consider that God did not tell you that the church is true? If a person from another faith says that God told them that their church is true how do you explain that? What makes your experience with God different than theirs?

  2. "Is there any way that you might consider that God did not tell you that the church is true?"

    Yes, if God were to tell me it were not true. God already has told me that it is, so nothing short of God himself can convince me otherwise.

    "If a person from another faith says that God told them that their church is true how do you explain that?"

    I don't know. I don't worry much about that.

    "What makes your experience with God different than theirs?"

    Again, I don't know. Everybody has unique experiences, and without comparing my experience to the specific experience of another person, I can't say what's different.

    I'm not out to prove that anyone else is wrong. I'm not trying to prove to anyone that I'm right. If anything I say on this website comes across that way, either my words are being misinterpreted or it's a slip-up on my part and I apologize.

    My primary intent is to prove that Mormonism can't be proven false. Of course that's an easy battle, since it's quite difficult for anyone else to prove a negative. My secondary goal is to show that there is enough evidence to make it worth it to take a closer look at the LDS Church. I hope to clarify points of LDS doctrine that are commonly misunderstood and help those who are seeking the truth to consider LDS doctrine with an open mind. I hope that people will seek out the truth with honest and sincere hearts. If someone feels they are doing that and they join the LDS Church, that makes me happy. If they feel God has told them to join a different church than the LDS Church, I'm somewhat disappointed, of course, but I wish them all the best. I don't think they're going to hell, and I don't think I'm better or smarter than they are.

    I think as long as we all do what we feel is right, then things will work out pretty well for all of us. I think where we get into trouble is when we are deceived by others or we deceive ourselves. There are some who reject LDS doctrine not on its merits, but because they are subject to external influences. I hope to cut through those influences with this website.

    Of course there are those in the LDS Church that don't belong to it based on its merits, but rather on tradition, family/society/peer pressure, etc. I worry about those people as well, and if those people can benefit from this website that's great, although that isn't the purpose of this website.

  3. "My primary intent is to prove that Mormonism can’t be proven false" This is a true statement if you add "in my mind". Some people have opened their mind to evidence that ,you might have dismissed. Possibly because of your predetermined belief. If you know the church is true no matter what the evidence, your mind is not open. You cannot accept the evidence because you have already made up your mind. Anything that is in conflict with your belief is discarded. Excuses are made. Like, God just knows more than I do. Or the facts are twisted to meet your preconceived belief. If you are thinking logically and you come across evidents that looks like it go's against what you believe. You adjust what you believe to fit the new evidence. If you are thinking with a closed mind you make excuses for your belief. You defend it, even with illogical arguments that you might laugh at others for doing the same with their beliefs.

  4. "'My primary intent is to prove that Mormonism can't be proven false' This is a true statement if you add 'in my mind'."

    I agree with you on this point. If you want to talk metaphysics you could make the case that there is no such thing as true objectivity and that none of us knows what is real and what isn't. I could say a rock I hold in my hand is real and tangible, and someone else could come along and say "Only in your mind is that rock real" and how could I definitively prove that he is wrong? What does it even mean to say the rock is "real"? We could doubt everything about us, but thinking that way for too long makes me feel like I need to lie down and take a nap. I've chosen to live my life assuming that things are, in reality, essentially as they appear to be.

    And how do things appear to me, in this case? It appears to me that the LDS Church is everything it purports to be, along with most everything else connected to it (Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, etc.). How do I know this? Because God told me so.

    Now, either God told me so, or he didn't. Let's examine each scenario individually:

    1. God exists, and he told me so.

    2. God exists, but he didn't tell me so, I just think he did.

    3. God doesn't exist, therefore he couldn't have told me so, I just think he did.

    1. God exists, and he told me so. If this is truly the case, then it makes sense for me to reject any evidence contrary to that which I already know. If there is any evidence that points to the LDS Church not being what it says it is, I already know that evidence is false without needing to examine the details. I may not understand why it is false, yet I still know it is false because it contradicts what I already know to be true. Logical enough, no?

    2. God exists, but he didn't tell me so, I just think he did. If this is the case, then God sure isn't making it easy to figure out what is true, because I've given him every opportunity to point me in a different direction. In ways too numerous to count I've effectively said "God, if I'm not doing what you want me to do, show me what you want me to do and I'll do it." The trouble is, the more I do this, the more he seems to give me evidence that the LDS Church is true and I'm doing what he wants me to do. So if I'm being misled, I blame God for it and I'll continue doing what I'm doing until he tells me otherwise.

    3. God doesn't exist, therefore he couldn't have told me so, I just think he did. In my mind, if there is no God (according to my understanding of who/what "God" is), then there is no life after this one, and nothing else matters, and I might as well do whatever makes me happy, which is what I happen to be doing.

    If you have another possible scenario, I'm open to considering it. I just figure it's one of these three, and in each case I don't see any reason to change my beliefs.

    • Another scenario:

      4. God exists, but the devil who appears as an “angel of light” is deceiving me just as he has with the Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientoligists, etc. Satan will do all he can to take away whom God loves.
      If God allowed Satan to attempt to deceive Adam and Eve and succeed, then he could do that with others.

  5. I agree. You understand the points I was trying to make.

    Now I started on the post "Why did you leave the Mormon church?" I haven't left the Mormon church but I understand why people do. If you apply the logic in the above post to someone that left the church. You might be able to understand. If you put your self in there shoes. In their minds God had told them the church was true through the holy ghost. When this happened they knew, only of the good things, the white washed history, only the faith promoting stories. Then they start to find out more truths that are not faith promoting. They put these things on the imaginary shelf in there mind. They forget about them for a time but as time go's on there shelf fills up. Then, they find a very troubling thing or things that causes them to find out moor. Because they say this can't be true, the church or prophet wouldn't do this. So they start studying and find out so many troubling things that there shelf breaks. And they start to doubt there spiritual witness. In there mind it dose not add up. They feel the church has lied to them and deceived them. The church has not been forthcoming with the truth, that is not faith promoting. They feel their testimony was built on half truths and deceit. The foundation that their testimony was built on was not the whole truth. So they feel the witness they received was on something that really did not exist. Like a fairy tale version of history.

  6. How do you know it was God leading you to believe Mormonism is true rather than Satan masquerading as God and leading you to believe a lie?

  7. How do you know that 2 + 2 = 4, and that you aren't being tricked?

  8. How do you know Mormonism is true?

  9. As I've stated many times on this website, my intent here is not to convince anyone that anything in particular is true. My intent is primarily defensive. That is, I am trying to show that nobody can prove that Mormonism is not true, and therefore there is a chance that it is true.

    That said, I have talked about why I am a Mormon here.

    • Are you saying that evolution could be true, even if the probability is so small? What is the smallest probability it would take for you to doubt something is true?

  10. Okay, thanks for the answer to my question. The reason I believe Mormonism isn't true is because it contradicts the Bible. That proves it isn't true. One clear example of countless examples:

    The Bible teaches that God justifies the ungodly:

    Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"

    The Joseph Smith Bible teaches that God doesn't justify the ungodly:

    Romans 4:5 " But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.?"

  11. I understand why you think Mormonism contradicts the Bible, but I see no contradiction in the example you gave. Yes, those two verses are not identical, but that's because one was translated by ordinary men, using their education and knowledge of languages as best they could (theoretically–there's nothing to prove that someone back in 500 AD didn't purposely change parts of the Bible to fit their own desires), and the other was translated by the power of God. Therefore the second version of the scripture is actually the more accurate one. It is what your Bible would say had it been translated correctly.

    It also makes more sense. Why would God justify the ungodly? Isn't he in the business of justifying those who repent of their sins and follow Jesus Christ, rather than those who are wicked and rebel against him? Of course you could interpret the first version as meaning that God justifies those who were formerly ungodly, once they repent and turn to him, which is fair enough, but I think the second version makes clear what is meant by the verse.

    For those of you who don't know what Echo means by "the Joseph Smith Bible" you can learn a little more about the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible here.

  12. You said: " Yes, those two verses are not identical, but that’s because one was translated by ordinary men, using their education and knowledge of languages as best they could (theoretically–there’s nothing to prove that someone back in 500 AD didn’t purposely change parts of the Bible to fit their own desires"

    I disagree. What you have done here is you have sinned against God by believing man rather than God. (I will assume you sinned unintentionally, I don't want to harm you, I am only here to be helpful) The man or men you have believed have not told you the truth.

    Romans 3:4 "Let God be true, and EVERY MAN A LIAR. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

    You have fallen into the same deceptive trap that Eve did. Satan tempted her to doubt God's word when he said: "Did God really say?…" Yours is the same trap, just a little more deceptive.

    You see, once Satan can get us to doubt God's word, he opens us up to acceptance of his deceptive doctrine and we no longer have any way of knowing it or detecting it. When Satan gets us to doubt God's word or truth he removes the only sure and certain tool God has given us to defend ourselves from his deceptive teachings. He is a tricky one that devil and he is out to destroy you and me.

    Where does this lead us, where does Satan take us from here on out once we have fallen into his deceptive trap? Watch what Jesus says to these folks:

    John 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, NOT HOLDING TO THE TRUTH, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

    See that part that I wrote in capital letters: "not holding to the truth"

    When someone tells you or I that there is the possibility that The Bible has been mistranslated or translated incorrectly or that someone may have purpose changed parts of the bible or left parts out, and we believe them, we then begin NOT HOLDING TO THE TRUTH. Do you see? Who then becomes our father? The scripture says the devil becomes our father. THe very thought sends shivers up my spine as I heed God's terrifying warning to hold to the truth! What about you? You want to hold to the truth too, right?

    Question: "It also makes more sense. Why would God justify the ungodly?"

    Initially, you will want to avoid making decisions about scriptures based on it "making sense", Isaiah 55:8 "“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD."

    Instead you want to base your decisions on the written facts:

    John 20:31 "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

    Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness."

    ROmans 5:6 "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the UNGODLY."

    ROmans 5:10 "For if, when we were God’s ENEMIES, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, "

    Mathew 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

    Mathew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.”’

    Mark 2:17 "On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

    Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

    1 Timothy 1:15 "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I AM the worst."

    You see? God ways are not are ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts. We think like the world, God thinks the opposite.

    Because we think like the world thinks, we can't trust our feelings:

    Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."

    Hope that helps.

  13. Echo, just about everything you've written or quoted above can be turned around on yourself. You say "The man or men you have believed have not told you the truth." I could say the same about those who have taught you your interpretations of the Bible.

    You say "Satan can get us to doubt God’s word, he opens us up to acceptance of his deceptive doctrine and we no longer have any way of knowing it or detecting it." I could say that it is not I that doubt God's word, but you. I believe the word of God, but you believe in man's interpretations of God's word.

    You quote God's words to Isaiah "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," but who is to say that it is not your ways and thoughts that are misaligned with God's, rather than mine? Maybe it is logic and rational thought that are God's ways, whereas man gets caught up in illogical and irrational thoughts.

    Furthermore, you do not use logic in your other statements, such as "When someone tells you or I that there is the possibility that The Bible has been mistranslated or translated incorrectly or that someone may have purpose changed parts of the bible or left parts out, and we believe them, we then begin NOT HOLDING TO THE TRUTH. Do you see?"

    No, I do not see. For your statement to be true, you would need proof that the Bible has not been mistranslated or purposely modified from its original form. Do you have such proof? How am I not holding to the truth, if the truth is that the Bible has been mistranslated and parts left out or purposely modified? There is ample evidence this is the case. What evidence do you have that this is not the case? Where does God say that the Bible has not been mistranslated? Where does God say that the Bible contains all his words? The Bible does not say this of itself, and so the only way you could know this would be if you were to have received direct communication from God, which possibility you deny.

  14. YOu said: "Echo, just about everything you’ve written or quoted above can be turned around on yourself. You say “The man or men you have believed have not told you the truth.” I could say the same about those who have taught you your interpretations of the Bible.

    You say “Satan can get us to doubt God’s word, he opens us up to acceptance of his deceptive doctrine and we no longer have any way of knowing it or detecting it.” I could say that it is not I that doubt God’s word, but you. I believe the word of God, but you believe in man’s interpretations of God’s word."

    ———–

    I am a Berean through and through, I have tested every teaching that has come my way by reading the scriptures myself. I don't believe in man's interpretation, I interpret it for myself and go where it leads me.

    You doubt God's word, not me. When you believe it is filled with errors, mistranlated incorrectly and all that, you are doubting God's word.

    ———-

    You said: "No, I do not see. How am I not holding to the truth, if the truth is that the Bible has been mistranslated and parts left out or purposely modified?"

    It's not the truth. YOu now have no way of knowing with certainty whether or not you are decieved. And you are decieved. The scripture shows me that with certainty.

    ———

    You said: "Where does God say that the Bible has not been mistranslated? Where does God say that the Bible contains all his words?"

    The scripture is filled with these answers. I encourage you to Read it. Here are a couple:

    Mathew 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

    JOb 42:2 "“I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted."

    Psalm 18:30 "As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him."

    Psalm 119:105 "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path"

    There is a whole lot more but it is 3:00 am for me and no doubt since you don't hold to the truth you will mistranlate by extrabiblical sources and won't believe it so there probably isn't any point anymore anyways. To be honest, your view completely robs the scripture of all of the truth it contains since you can't be sure what is true and what isn't. A person cannot depend on God's word in your beliefs. For example: " Your word is a lamp for my feet and a light for my path" It really isn't a lamp for our feet and a light for our path any longer when it contains erros and is mistranslated improperly or had things changed or removed. Satan has won this one. That's unfortunate.

    Good night. Thanks for your time. :)

  15. Like you, I don't believe in man's interpretation of scripture. I believe in God's interpretation, and I only trust that interpretation which can be verified through direction communication with God. How do I know that I am correct, or at least on the correct path? Because God communicates to me through the Holy Ghost that this is so.

    I do not doubt the word of God, but I doubt that the Bible is a 100% accurate record of God's word. You say this is not the truth, but what evidence do you have? The scriptures you present as evidence are not proof, because you cannot prove that your interpretation of those scriptures is correct.

    Mathew 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

    This says nothing about the Bible. This is stating that every prophecy God has given to man will be fulfilled, and that God's doctrines are eternal, unchanging, etc.

    JOb 42:2 "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted."

    Who says it was ever God's plan for the Bible to come down to us in our day without any imperfections?

    Psalm 18:30 "As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him."

    Yes, the word of the Lord is flawless, but his word is what he said, and what the prophets wrote down, not what was mistranslated or modified.

    You say that my view completely robs the scripture of all the truth it contains since I can't be sure what is true and what isn't. This is not true. I can be sure what is true and what isn't, but it requires a source of understanding outside the Bible in order to do so. Those who rely exclusively on the Bible are the ones who cannot know for sure what is correct and what isn't, since they have only those words. But I have other scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, which God sent to confirm the truth of the Bible and clarify its meaning. I have modern-day prophets and apostles to whom God continues to deliver his word, just as he did in the days of the Bible. Most importantly, I have direct communication with God through his Holy Spirit, which enables me to know what is true and what is not. I have all these things to help me understand the true meaning of the Bible, but those who reject what God has sent in these latter days have only their own interpretations.

    Now, just as I have shown that you cannot prove that your interpretation of the scriptures is correct, nor can I prove that mine is correct. That is, I cannot prove it to you, nor anyone else. But you can find the proof that what I have said is true for yourself. As is said in James 1:5-7:

    5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

    6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

    7. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

    If anyone wants to know whether the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that the LDS Church is God's only true church upon the earth, they simply need to read the Book of Mormon, and ask God if it is true. But as the Bible says, you must ask in faith, nothing wavering. What does that mean? It means that first, you have to be willing to accept what God says, no matter what that answer is. If he tells you the Book of Mormon is true, then that means Joseph Smith was a prophet. That means the LDS Church is true. That means you should be baptized into the LDS Church and be an active member of it. If you are not willing to accept all this, then you are not asking in faith. If you already know, in the back of your mind, that you're not going to get an answer, so that you can say "See! I prayed and I didn't get an answer that your church is true!" then you are not asking with faith. And so of course you will not receive the answer.

    If anything I've said in this comment thread or anywhere else seems contentious or prideful and causes you or anyone else to have thrown up walls against what I am saying, I apologize. I'm far from perfect, and can get carried away at times, although I like to think of myself as being cool and calm while I'm discussing such things. But perhaps I'm too cool and leave out the love. Anyway, if I am not a perfect messenger of Christ's message, I apologize for my faults and hope no one will fail to seek out the truth because of my weakness.

    And now, off to bed.

  16. You said: "If anything I’ve said in this comment thread or anywhere else seems contentious or prideful and causes you or anyone else to have thrown up walls against what I am saying, I apologize. I’m far from perfect, and can get carried away at times, although I like to think of myself as being cool and calm while I’m discussing such things. But perhaps I’m too cool and leave out the love. Anyway, if I am not a perfect messenger of Christ’s message, I apologize for my faults and hope no one will fail to seek out the truth because of my weakness."

    I appreciate your straight forwardness in all your posts. When we disagree, that isn't contentious. You are not being contentious at all. Contention begins with personal attacks against a person with name calling, sarcasm etc. or when folks judge the motives of others negatively etc. and you are being very respectful, friendly and loving in that regard. I appreciate that because Mormons and Christians are not enemies, they both have Satan as their enemy and they should work together to come together into unity of doctrine.

    ———-

    Question: "I do not doubt the word of God, but I doubt that the Bible is a 100% accurate record of God’s word. You say this is not the truth, but what evidence do you have?"

    I personally have faith in the accuracy of the Bible because of the powerful message contained in it. A careful study of the nature and power of God rules out any human ability to tamper with or modify God's word without his express permission. The Bible is God's own testimony of himself given to us and for us. No man can outwit God. His word stands firm. His word protects us from every evil temptation of the devil. Notice when Jesus was tempted 3 times in the desert, he didn't rely on personal revelation to fend off the devil, he relied on the written word alone! That is significant!

    Even in Jesus' own day, when the scriptures had been handed down from generation to generation spanning thousands of years, even then, Jesus supported the 100% accuracy of the scriptures. Never once did he state it contained any errors or was mistranslated etc. If the written word was preserved with such stunning accuracy then, there is no reason to believe anything has changed with the bible we have today. God is fully capable of preserving his word for all generations.

    Now if you need more evidence than that, (which I don't because the scripture is sufficient for me, I consider every man a liar and trust God above all men), there is a lot of evidence out there. Books have been written on the accuracy and inerrancy of scripture. I recommend you do some internet searches. But your faith will be more practically built up to unshakable only by learning more about God's power and purpose for the word through reading the scripture itself.

    While doing that, I also recommend taking to heart all the scriptural warnings against not believing God's word. In every instance, the devil is the father of those who reject God's written truth.

    ———-

    You said: "Those who rely exclusively on the Bible are the ones who cannot know for sure what is correct and what isn’t, since they have only those words."

    Incorrect. We can know with unshakable certainty because it is written.

    ———-

    You said: " But I have other scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, which God sent to confirm the truth of the Bible and clarify its meaning."

    Incorrect. The rule of thumb in scripture is that if someone comes and brings us a teaching that contradicts God's word, it is a fraud. One of the many reasons God preserves his word in scriptures for all generations is to protect us from false teachers and false prophets. False teachers and false prophets have the potential to destroy our souls and lead us into outer darkness through deceiving us. The JST contradicts God's word as I have shown you earlier where the bible states that God's justifies the ungodly and the JST states the opposite. That is one of the numerous ways that clearly reveals Joseph Smith as a false prophet and false teacher:

    Isaiah 8:20 "Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn."

    Acts 17:11 "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

    ———-

    You said: "I have modern-day prophets and apostles to whom God continues to deliver his word, just as he did in the days of the Bible."

    Incorrect. What you have is false prophets and apostles:

    Ephesians 2:20 "built on the foundation of THE apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone."

    See this verse above? Notice that the church is built on the foundation of ***THE*** apostles and prophets. That means that the church is built on the foundation of the biblical apostles and prophets alone and not on an ongoing succession of apostles and prophets as the LDS believes. If the church were built on the foundation of a succession of apostles and prophets, the word "and" written there would have to be removed so that the verse would read as follows: "Built on the foundation of apostles and prophets." Remember that Jesus taught that we live on EVERY word that comes from the mouth of God not just some of his word. Your prophet and apostles have done this very thing, they have removed the word "THE" from this verse. See this link:

    http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&so

    Notice that they used ellipses (…) to replace the word: "THE"

    An ellipsis is used to shorten a quote while at the same time retaining the original meaning of the quote. In other words, a quote should not be shortened if it changes the meaning intended.

    In the case of this signed testimony, neither rings true. First, replacing the three letter word: "THE" with three dots "…" does not shorten the quote at all. Second, removing that one single word entirely alters the original meaning of the verse. They are false prophets and apostles and I am certain of it. The testimony lacks all integrity in that regard.

    ———-

    You said: "Most importantly, I have direct communication with God through his Holy Spirit, which enables me to know what is true and what is not."

    Incorrect. The scripture is the Holy Spirit's very own word. If the Spirit that speaks to you contradicts the Spirit's own written testimony, it is an illusion, a false feeling or a demon. That Spirit is not from God. The Holy Spirit speaks to us today through the written word only to guard us and protect us from Satan and demons. That very same written word rules out personal revelation.

    ———-

    You said: " But you can find the proof that what I have said is true for yourself. As is said in James 1:5-7: 5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

    Incorrect. "Wisdom" is NOT "truth." Wisdom is knowing how to apply a truth you already know in advance of having wisdom and then knowing how to apply that truth in your daily actions. A person must know truth BEFORE they can ask for wisdom. Truth is found in scripture. To pray for God to reveal if something is true is unbelief and testing or tempting God, all of which are condemned in scripture. God has already revealed to us his word is truth. We shouldn't doubt that but believe it and read it. His word has also revealed that what Joseph Smith says is false. Those who need to pray if the Bible is true rather than just believing it is true are those whom the scripture reveals a warning and a powerful delusion. Could that delusion be your personal revelation convincing you to NOT to HOLD TO THE TRUTH? :

    2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. THEY PERSISH BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO LOVE THE TRUTH and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

    I sincerely hope you heed those warnings. As I said before, you and I are not enemies, Satan is our enemy in common and he is seeking to devour us all. That’s why it’s important to help each other and rescue each other from his deceptive schemes which will lead to destruction.

  17. Wow, that's a long response. Well, I know this is helping me to understand more about your perspective, hopefully you're understanding more about mine and that of other Mormons, and hopefully this is educational for someone else out there. I may respond to a few of these in separate posts…but I'm afraid I don't have time at the moment so I'll keep my response brief for once.

    In the end much of this comes down to individual interpretations of the Bible, and the issue that two people can read the same words and understand different things. My reading and understanding of the Bible confirms to me that Mormonism is true, and everything you've shown me only confirms it more and more. Obviously you are of a different opinion.

    At the end of the day, I know that what I believe is true because of direct communication with God. How do I know this communication is really with God and not Satan or just my imagination? Because the nature of the communication is such that one knows what it is, and from whom it comes. Other than that, I lack the words to explain it better. To fall back on a cliche, it's like trying to explaining to someone who has never tasted salt what salt tastes like. Well, it's salty. It's not sweet, it's not bitter, it's just…salty. I know what it is, but there's no way for me to accurately explain or communicate to another person what it is. They have to try it for themselves.

    Likewise, I cannot explain exactly how I know, but I do know the things I believe are true, and anyone else can find out for themselves by following the simple steps outlined in the Book of Mormon in Moroni 10:3-5.

    3. Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

    4. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    5. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

    Read the Book of Mormon with an open heart and mind, ponder and think about it, and then ask God if it's true. If you pray with a sincere heart and real intent, you'll get the same answer I have, and you'll know without a doubt that the book is true. And in the same manner you can find out that the rest of what the LDS Church teaches is the complete and true gospel of Christ.

  18. I already told you…oh wait, that was on another post. Man, we've got a lot of conversations going on here at the same time. Anyway, short answer here, the communication is of such a nature that it cannot be mistaken for what it is, or what the source is. If that is hard to understand, I don't blame you. All I can tell you is that if you had the same experiences I have had, then you would believe as I do. Well, and I guess the other thing I can say is that you can have the same experiences I have had if you follow the same steps I took.

  19. It's true that God himself can send you such a powerful delusion, a communication that you think cannot be mistaken so that you believe the lie. HIs word confirm he does this to those who refuse to love the truth which is exactly what you are doing. So I will say no more. It's in God's hands

    2 Thes 2:10 "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie"

  20. If you believe God can delude me and make me believe a lie is true, how do you know that this is not what has happened to you?

  21. If you believed the truth, you would know the answer to that question.

    Thanks for your time.

  22. You said: “I know this communication is really with God and not Satan or just my imagination? Because the nature of the communication is such that one knows what it is, and from whom it comes. ”

    Well scripture teaches that Satan has a way of masquerading as an angel of light. You need to be certain it isn’t him. How can you be certain?

  23. are you as stupid as you seem to be?

  24. paraphysis – I'm not sure who you're trying to insult–me, or one of the other two people who have been commenting on this post, but regardless, pointless insults get deleted from this blog (with this rare exception, as a lesson to others who might be tempted to do as you have done). If you have a point to make, then make it, and make sure it's halfway intelligent because I have a tendency to delete posts that don't show much in the way of logic, reason, or rational thought.

  25. Yes, a couple of things.

    1. Missionaries, I hear, are given incentives, and a quota of baptisms to conduct. How does this make them sincere? Especially when I know they're talking from a script.

    2. I believe my God is big enough to make the Bible sufficient and free of error throughout history. There is no need for any addition to take place. The Bible being translated by Joseph Smith is just another translation, only he intentionally changed the words to shape the meaning around the Book of Mormon so the two could be more unified in message. Sounds like manipulation to me.

    3. What is up with your secret token handshakes and penalty gestures?! Sounds more like Masonic rituals to me. Even Joseph Smith was a Free Mason. And what's up with D&C 132?! If Emma didn't obey, she should be destroyed??!?!? What the…??

    4. Mormons ask us to "pray and read the Book of Mormon and then you'll feel it's right". I'm sorry, but faith does not equal feeling. If we're true Christians, we act on faith, not on feelings, since feelings are so fleeting and can trick us. We can't go on what our heart says, because God, in Jeremiah 17: 9, said, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" It is by faith that the great men of God did what was required of them, not by feelings. The Bible would sound pretty silly if it read, "By feeling good, Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. By feeling good about it, Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. By definitely feeling great, Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones." See my point?

    This is why I can't become a Mormon. Other than this, I think Mormonism is on par. But these 4 things really have me struggling to embrace the LDS Church as the true church.

  26. In response:

    1. Missionaries are given goals, but I would hardly call a goal an incentive, although I suppose you could call it a quota. I admit it does sound strange to talk about goals, objectives, stats, numbers, etc. when it comes to sharing the gospel, because those terms seem more fitting in a business than a religion, but if Mormons believe they are sharing God's truth, why shouldn't they use the best business practices in order to get God's work done?

    That said, yes, having goals can be a challenge to the sincerity of a missionary. Rather than "I really want to find someone whose life I can touch today" the goal can become "I really want to teach one more person today so that my numbers look good." But that depends on each individual missionary. Some feel that pressure more than others. Some don't feel it at all. What does seem to be proven is that when clear goals are set for missionaries and they are required to report on those goals and are held accountable, then more missionary work tends to get done than if there were no requirements. Can a missionary work hard to achieve a goal that may be an arbitrary number and still be sincere? Sure, I saw it all the time during my mission, and that's what the overall goal is.

    2. "I believe my God is big enough to make the Bible sufficient and free of error throughout history." So do Mormons. But could He do that and leave people free to make their own choices? Or would He have had to interfere with man's freedom? Could it be that God had a purpose in allowing the Bible to be corrupted?

    Either Joseph Smith was a prophet, or he was a con man. There's not much middle ground to be found. The good news is that anyone can read the Book of Mormon, pray, and find out what is true for themselves…although yes, that brings us to #4 below.

    3. The free masons got their rituals and such from the Temple of Solomon. Solomon got them either from God or they were passed down to him by prophets who got them from God. Joseph Smith got the temple ordinances and everything involved in them from God. It all came from the same source, the only difference is that the masons got then illegitimately, as opposed to Solomon and Joseph.

    D&C 132 and Emma and destruction and such. I guess if that sounds a little harsh for the God you believe in, it's no more harsh than God commanding the ancient Israelites to attack cities and kill all the men, women, children, and livestock. Actually, it seems a bit less harsh to me than that. As to what God meant by "cleave unto Joseph" or "destroyed" I'm not even sure. Sounds like he was saying she should stand by and support Joseph, or else. Given the level of knowledge she possessed and the commitments she had made, that doesn't seem unreasonable to me for God to make such a statement. In reality, it should be seen as a loving warning by a caring Heavenly Father, rather than a threat. I don't think he was saying "Do this or else I'll kill you," rather he was saying "Do this or else you will destroy yourself." You could say it's analogous to a parent saying "Don't run to close to that cliff or you'll fall off and be destroyed." Threat, or warning?

    4. "Feelings" aren't what direct Mormons, it's just the best word we have to weakly describe the way the Holy Ghost communicates. One could also say "God put knowledge into my mind" or "God told me such and such was true" and other similar things, but it's simpler for Mormons to say things like "I felt it was true." It's more a matter of semantics when we talk about the word "feelings". The real questions are; 1) does God communicate with us, and 2) if so, how?

    Logically, there must be a way for God to communicate with us outside the Bible, because the Bible cannot prove itself to be true. If you take a guy from a rural village in China who has never heard of the Bible, Jesus Christ, Christianity, or even the United States (yes, people do exist today who are not aware of the existence of any of these things simply because they've never heard of them), and give him a copy of the Bible and a copy of The Da Vinci Code and have him read both of them, how does he know that one is true and the other is fiction? Unless something external to the Bible tells him it is true, he cannot know, and therefore cannot exercise faith in it. It would be just as reasonable for him to assume The Da Vinci Code is the word of God as it would be for him to assume the same of the Bible.

    So then if we can accept that there must be communication from God in order to exercise faith in him and his word, then what is the form of that communication? It is through the Holy Ghost, or the Spirit of God. What is it like? It is like knowledge being put straight into your mind. It is something that communicates with you in a way that is hard to describe, but which let's you know that something is true and real. Because it is hard to describe, we use the words most accessible to us, and one of those words is "feelings". But it could be called many other things.

    The beauty of it all is that no person can convince another. I cannot prove to you that I have received this sort of communication. Therefore you cannot leech off or or depend on me. You have to get the knowledge for yourself, as does everyone else. But this is quite easy. All it takes is sincerity, humility, a desire to know the truth, and a commitment to live according to the truth one receives. And then asking. When the answer is received, it is unmistakable to the one receiving it, and thereby is proof of what is true obtained.

  27. Joshua and others, first let me say, congratulations to those participating in this discussion for the respectful dialog. It is refreshing!

    I do have a question for you, Joshua. I know LDS members do believe the Bible has been translated incorrectly over time. You have stated this as well in your posts. If this is your belief, how is it you feel you can safely use Bible scripture at times (see above) to "support" your beliefs? In other words, do you know of assurety, which Books, chapters, and verses in the Holy Bible are incorrect?

    Respectfully,

    Rick

  28. Echo, if the bible is the "end all be all" and is completely translated correctly, then my question to you is, which version? There are so many translations and versions of the bible and they all say different things. So, which one is the correct one because they can't all be translated correctly since they are all slightly different?

    You also said, "Notice that the church is built on the foundation of ***THE*** apostles and prophets. That means that the church is built on the foundation of the biblical apostles and prophets alone and not on an ongoing succession of apostles and prophets as the LDS believes"

    That is a really silly and faulty thought. Each book in the bible was written on its own and stood alone. The bible wasn't created until hundreds of years later around the 4th century AD by men (not God, not Apostles, not Prophets). They compiled each of the works they thought were God's word into one book called the bible. So according to you every prophet or apostle that had writings that weren't part of this collection created by men (called the bible) isn't really a prophet or apostle? That's pretty absurd. Just because these men compiling the bible either didn't have or didn't want to include other apostles or prophets' writings, doesn't disqualify them as apostles or prophets.

    Let me ask you 2 more questions. The book of revelation talks about 2 prophets that will preach, be killed, and be raised up in the last days. If there are no more prophets, then why does the book of revelation talk about 2 prophets in the last days? Also, if these are the last days and most wicked time on earth, why would God have prophets from the beginning of the earth and for thousands of years, and then all of a sudden not have any prophets during the last days when they are most needed?

    • That’s a nicely made answer to a chenialglng question

  29. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD BY GOD???? I mean seriously, you seem so certain yet never support it. did you get some kind of revelation, and how can you know it was God. What makes you think you have a direct line to God but not others who say they do?

    • How do I know? Yes, I have received revelation. That is the only way someone can know these things are true. But revelation is personal. My revelation can convince me, but it can't convince you. You have to receive your own revelation. But the steps are clear and simple. You do your research, you work things out as best you can on your own, and then you ask God directly. If you ask with sincerity you will receive an answer that you will know comes from God and nowhere else.

  30. also im sure lots of people think what they are doing is right. Does this make it right? no. Im sure Hitler felt justified. Sorry very off topic

  31. also nothing can be proven right or wrong without a shadow of a doubt so there i have acheived your goal for you

  32. Just to let you all know, I was baptized February 26 this year…so I guess there wasn't anything that could convince me that Joseph Smith wasn't right! Since then, I've received my patriarchal blessing, I've been to the temple, and I'm a ward missionary. Thank you all for your answers. It's been a long and difficult road since I've been a member, lots of people bashing the faith and all sorts. Sometimes I feel as though I'm alone, but I know I'm not. Joshua, if you've prayed for me, your prayers were answered. Thank you again.

  33. I've always wondered if mormonism was "that strong delusion" and if joseph smith was the FALSE PROPHET of the Bible. After reading blogs where people cannot be convinced by any logical argument (example: the plagiarism of the King James Bible, the DNA of the American Indians, joseph smith's obvious false prophesies etc.) , I am now totally convinced it is.

  34. @greg – The reason why arguments like "plagiarism" of the KJV, American Indian DNA samples, and "obvious false prophecies" of Joseph Smith don't convince Mormons that Joseph Smith was a false prophet is because Mormons don't see these arguments as being logical except in the absence of any in-depth investigation of those matters. That is, these arguments only make sense until you start looking in them. Read the resources at the following links, as well as the resources linked to from those resources, and while they may not convince you the Book of Mormon is true or that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, I think you will at least have a better understanding of why Mormons feel their beliefs are completely logical with regards to these matters.

    Why do part of the Book of Mormon match, word for word, including errors, parts of the KJV?

    What is the real story behind the DNA tests that supposedly prove the Book of Mormon to be false?

    What about Joseph Smith's false prophecies? Well, I won't try to answer this one until you give me specifics, since I would only be guessing at what you are referring to.

  35. I think the proper question to ask is have you ever received revelation/communication that turned out to be from Satan? If you are so sure the communication you have had is from God, because "one just knows" when they have had that kind of communication, then we would have to assume you have received communication from Satan to know the difference.

    Otherwise, the question still stands HOW do you know? Satan does masquerade as an angel of light, he is the father of all lies, he has tricked millions by his temptations. Do you expect us to believe that you are so smart, so wise, so discerning that you are able to tell the difference between God's communication and Satan's without having had both? What is the test you use to discern between the two, because I assure you, you are not immune to the devil. None of us are.

    • There is indeed a test, and it's found in the Book of Mormon in Moroni 7:15-17:

      15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

      16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

      17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

  36. By God telling you so, I take it you mean in your heart! Mormons quiet often say God told me so but when you enquire did you see him, hear him or how did he communicate with you, it comes down to the same method God told Millions of others their religion was good.

    There is not a true religion on the planet, if true includes doing as they preach. Let me give you a couple of examples with the Mormons. In the Bible one of the main messages is that divorce is not acceptable in the eyes of God it is repeated so many times and absolutely nowhere does it say it is ok for a Women to Divorce a man. Some how the LDS church conveniently overlooks this. Despite making proclamations on the family, Despite the scriptures saying it is not acceptable the church tolerates it. What is the divorce rate amongst Mormons world wide. If it were a so called true organization it would remove those who clearly disobey Gods word. How can a church be so called "true", when it is clearly not following the Bible and its own scripture the BoM.

    I have Mormon friends and have seen them divorce and in a year go to their churches within a year. Mormons build temples to for the purpose of "turning the hearts of the children to the Fathers" and yet they are willing to baptize or do ordinances on minor children even if the Father disagrees, simply because a Court of the land has given the mother custody. Why would a true organisation put aside the word of God for the word of a court.

    Don't get me wrong the Mormon church does many great things, and its congragations are more educated in the scriptures than most, and maybe because of that extra knowledge they will be judged more harshly, because they are allowing a practice that is politically convenient and not in accordance with the word of God. If the Mormons are saying that 20 or 30% of the wives have been found in Adultery that is why 20-30% of their member get divorced then ok, but I rather doubt it.

    The Mormons have also had some what would be considered Racist policy in the past concerning non whites and their priesthood. I could understand a church claiming people of certain linage should not hold certain office, that was clearly the case for much of the Bible, but to suddenly change direction mid stream simply because laws and general feelings in the US changed seems to smell of political correctness and political survival rather than anything to do with truth.

    In the case of the black issue then if the church you think God told you was true is indeed true now, then the church that those who claimed it was true pre 1970's was not true.

    I think you would be on much safer ground to claim that God told you THE GOSPEL OF JESUS WAS TRUE and NOT A CHURCH.

    I dare you to get a New Testament that has no cross references, no subscript and read it from cover to cover and pray and ask if it is true. I bet you cont get an answer back saying "Only as far as it is translated correctly" you will get a feeling that it is the word of God. I am certain you may get the same feeling when you read the Book of Mormon, as from what I can see most of the bits that talk about Gospel are nearly a word for word copy of the Gospels contained in the Bible with some different story lines linking it together.

    Part of the problem with many Mormons is that many of them have never read the Bible all the way through. Many of them have read the Book of Mormon all the way through and got good feelings about the message and that is great. But the church has very little of its policy framed on the Book of Mormon, all of its policy seems to be framed on the D &C and not too many Mormons even have read the D&C from cover to cover and got warm fuzzy feelings about it, yet it is the teachings in the D&C that set the Mormons apart from other churches, not the teachings in the Book of Mormon.

    There are many examples where the Mormon's have not been true to their own teachings and have back tracted. Even Gorden Hinckly said on National TV that the church had learn t and move along in relation to some matters, basically admitting the stance it had previously was not correct, so if your president can say that that your church is not true in the sense of being fully correct then you probably should be able to do so as well.

    Mormons are those who have changed the gospel to Only those who believe in Jesus and are baptised of fire and water and and and and … dont drink tea and don't drink wine and don't smoke and pay their tithes and go to the temple and go to church every week and and and….. shall enter into the kingdom of God.

  37. By God telling you so, I take it you mean in your heart! Mormons quiet often say God told me so but when you enquire did you see him, hear him or how did he communicate with you, it comes down to the same method God told Millions of others their religion was good.

    There is not a true religion on the planet, if true includes doing as they preach. Let me give you a couple of examples with the Mormons. In the Bible one of the main messages is that divorce is not acceptable in the eyes of God it is repeated so many times and absolutely nowhere does it say it is ok for a Women to Divorce a man. Some how the LDS church conveniently overlooks this. Despite making proclamations on the family, Despite the scriptures saying it is not acceptable the church tolerates it. What is the divorce rate amongst Mormons world wide. If it were a so called true organization it would remove those who clearly disobey Gods word. How can a church be so called "true", when it is clearly not following the Bible and its own scripture the BoM.

    I have Mormon friends and have seen them divorce and in a year go to their churches within a year. Mormons build temples to for the purpose of "turning the hearts of the children to the Fathers" and yet they are willing to baptize or do ordinances on minor children even if the Father disagrees, simply because a Court of the land has given the mother custody. Why would a true organisation put aside the word of God for the word of a court.

    Don't get me wrong the Mormon church does many great things, and its congragations are more educated in the scriptures than most, and maybe because of that extra knowledge they will be judged more harshly, because they are allowing a practice that is politically convenient and not in accordance with the word of God. If the Mormons are saying that 20 or 30% of the wives have been found in Adultery that is why 20-30% of their member get divorced then ok, but I rather doubt it.

    The Mormons have also had some what would be considered Racist policy in the past concerning non whites and their priesthood. I could understand a church claiming people of certain linage should not hold certain office, that was clearly the case for much of the Bible, but to suddenly change direction mid stream simply because laws and general feelings in the US changed seems to smell of political correctness and political survival rather than anything to do with truth.

    In the case of the black issue then if the church you think God told you was true is indeed true now, then the church that those who claimed it was true pre 1970's was not true.

    I think you would be on much safer ground to claim that God told you THE GOSPEL OF JESUS WAS TRUE and NOT A CHURCH.

    I dare you to get a New Testament that has no cross references, no subscript and read it from cover to cover and pray and ask if it is true. I bet you cont get an answer back saying "Only as far as it is translated correctly" you will get a feeling that it is the word of God. I am certain you may get the same feeling when you read the Book of Mormon, as from what I can see most of the bits that talk about Gospel are nearly a word for word copy of the Gospels contained in the Bible with some different story lines linking it together.

    Part of the problem with many Mormons is that many of them have never read the Bible all the way through. Many of them have read the Book of Mormon all the way through and got good feelings about the message and that is great. But the church has very little of its policy framed on the Book of Mormon, all of its policy seems to be framed on the D &C and not too many Mormons even have read the D&C from cover to cover and got warm fuzzy feelings about it, yet it is the teachings in the D&C that set the Mormons apart from other churches, not the teachings in the Book of Mormon.

    There are many examples where the Mormon's have not been true to their own teachings and have back tracked. Even Gorden Hinckly said on National TV that the church had learn t and move along in relation to some matters, basically admitting the stance it had previously was not correct, so if your president can say that that your church is not true in the sense of being fully correct then you probably should be able to do so as well.

    Mormons are those who have changed the gospel to Only those who believe in Jesus and are baptised of fire and water and and and and … dont drink tea and don't drink wine and don't smoke and pay their tithes and go to the temple and go to church every week and and and….. shall enter into the kingdom of God.

  38. So the test according to Joseph Smith is if it persuades you to believe in Christ and serve God, then it is from God, if it persuades you to do evil, then it's from the devil. That simple huh? Bad things=from devil, good things=from God. Let's see what Jesus has to say about this.

    Jesus said not all who come to him saying "Lord Lord we have done many wonderful works and cast out devils in your name" will be known by him. He will say away from me, I never knew you, depart from me. And they were doing GOOD WORKS in Jesus' name! But it could not have been from God or else Jesus would recognize them! So I don't think that is an accurate test according to Jesus. If what is "revealed" to you is not in line with what Jesus taught, you know it is not from God. That is the test.

    If the devil can get you to spin your wheels thinking you are doing all these great works in Gods name but you do not know God truly, then he wins. He does not have to get you to do evil to get you away from Gods will. He can get you to believe you can work your way into heaven and convince you of your own worthiness so you don't focus on what the real will of the Father is…to believe on the One whom He sent. Faith in Jesus is the will of the Father, Jesus said so. (John 6:40)

    If the voice you hear tells you that to live with God you must go to the temple and do rituals, stay away from coffee and alcohol, do your visiting teaching, attend all your meetings, pay your tithing, do this and do that and on and on in order to be worthy it is not of God. Your focus now is not on Jesus and his sacrifice for you, it is on YOU and what YOU can do to make yourself worthy. Spinning your wheels, your eyes are off the cross (the very place you were already reconciled to God), and the devil wins.

    I hope when you die and come before Jesus, you do not say "Lord Lord I did many wonderful good works in your name!" I hope all you say is "Jesus I am not worthy, but I placed my faith and trust in you for my salvation, because your work on the cross was sufficient for me."

  39. "because your work on the cross was sufficient for me." Haha, that's funny. Why don't you just say, "I'm glad you did all the work that was needed for me, because I was so lazy and didn't do jack."

    Wow, you're not really that dumb are you?

  40. Mike- The love of Christ just oozing from you! I see you grasp the concept of not judging others just as well as you grasp the teachings of grace. Haha that's funny, you have no idea what the Bible teaches.You also have no idea of what I do or don't do, I stated there is nothing we can do to earn salvation, Christ already did it on the cross. You can laugh about His sacrifice all you want, it doesn't change the fact that it was enough for me. If it's not enough for you, by all means, try to work your way to heaven and see how far you get.

    You know something funnier? Joseph Smith put a rock and his face into a hat and said he was translating an unknown language (that still hasn't been discovered anywhere) without even looking at the supposed plates he was suppose to be translating. As icing on the cake, when some of the "translated" pages were taken and hidden by Mrs. Harris, Smith could not reproduce the same pages again! He was "told" he could never translate from those pages again conveniently. And Mormons believe Smith after all this!

    Wow, you're not really that dumb are you?

    • Depuis les nombreux mois où je te lis avec chaque jour le même plaisir, j’ai l’habitude de partager tes émotions du quotidien : tes grandes joies, tes petits bonheurs, tes coups de gueule, tes fous ridh2#8&30;Aujourr’eui, à travers ce texte, plus beau que tous les autres, je partage ta peine et ton chagrin.Toutes mes condoléances et bon courage.Amitiés,Anne

  41. Oh, thanks for judging me. It sounds like you understand that concept yourself very well. You don't know me. I have studied the Bible for several years and understand the teachings of grace.

    I would never laugh or make fun of my Savior's sacrifices. I was laughing at the ridiculous comment you made about being saved without having to do anything accept believing in Christ's sacrifice. With that belief, all of the commandments, everything Christ has said or taught, goes right out the window. You need to take a step back and look at this with a little bit of logic instead of what your pastor has told you. Which of these comments sound like they would come from Christ, and which ones sound like something the devil would try to trick people into believing:

    1. Feed the Hungry and Clothe the naked OR

    2. It doesn't matter what you do, just believe in Christ and you'll be saved

    1. Be Humble, Meek, Kind OR

    2. It doesn't matter what you do, just believe in Christ and you'll be saved

    1. Love thy Neighbor OR

    2. It doesn't matter what you do, just believe in Christ and you'll be saved

    1. Don't commit adultery or murder OR

    2. It doesn't matter what you do, just believe in Christ and you'll be saved

    1. Repent, be baptized and follow Christ OR

    2. It doesn't matter what you do, just believe in Christ and you'll be saved

    Any church that teaches grace as being "Christ did enough for us that all we have to do is accept that and we will be saved" totally discounts the whole rest of the Bible and its teachings. Any church with that belief is being led by the devil.

    It sounds like you don't know anything about Joseph Smith except what your pastor has over simplified for you.

  42. My pastor has never said a word about Joseph Smith, I was raised in the Mormon church and was a member for 32 years. Now that I am free I read my bible and think for myself, but nice try.

    You obviously only have the mormon understanding of what grace is. Tell me: this Christmas, did anyone hand you a gift and then say, that'll be $50? If they did, sorry to tell you but it no longer qualifies as a gift. It is something you purchased with a payment.

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

    It sounds like you don’t know anything about the bible except what your bishop/teacher has over complicated for you. Jesus already paid the price, we now get the free gift through faith.

    And yeah, Christians just throw all the rest of the bible out the window! Wow, you're not really that dumb are you? (sorry to keep quoting you, it was just so "kind" and "humble" and "meek") Have you ever even been outside of the Mormon church, or do you just listen to what your Mormon leaders and family tell you? Don't listen to those evil Christians, they are of the devil!! I don't blame your belief on you, Joseph Smith said all Christians were of the devil and an abomination, your temple films used to show a Christian pastor in the employment of the devil, so I'm sure that has been indoctrinated into you. Your prideful attitude is what comes from Mormon in-doctrine-nation. And you think that is from Christ?

    There were 2 thieves on the crosses next to Jesus. One said, save yourself! Do something! The other one only acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God. Which one joined Jesus in paradise? Hmmm…

    You might want to rethink all your little questions that you conjured up with your closed mind and limited knowledge. You really have no idea about what Christianity is, one could tell that by the way you framed your silly questions.

    How about you Mike? Have you ever looked on a woman with lust? Jesus said you were an adulterer. Have you ever hated (been extremely angry) with someone? Jesus said you committed murder. And by your first arrogant, nasty comments to me I know you don't always love thy neighbor. You think you keep the commandments? You are now lying if you said yes.

    You have broken God's commandments. The penalty is death. Who can save you, Jesus or yourself? It IS that simple. Your works are as filthy rags in His sight, only the work on the cross and Jesus' precious blood will reconcile you to God. There is nothing good enough you can do that would add to His already perfect sacrifice.

    You have been beguiled by an angel of light to take your eyes off the cross, which is why you are offended by the sight of it.

  43. Oh, I figured that y'all would want an update…

    I tom lessons from the elders. I was baptized February 26, 2011, confirmed the next day. My doubt is gone, I have my patriarchal blessing, I hold a current limited temple recommendand and will soon be endowed at the temple in March.

    A lot has happened in a year! :-) I'm just proof that Heavenly Father still works, even if Satan tries to fill God's children with doubt. I'm happy to be Mormon! :-)

  44. Took lessons, not tom, lol.

  45. "Just to let you all know, I was baptized February 26 this year…so I guess there wasn’t anything that could convince me that Joseph Smith wasn’t right!"

    I am sorry to hear this Dotty, I wish you would have been convinced that Jesus was right and placed your trust in Him instead.

  46. Why are you sorry? I'm not sorry, I'm much happier! My trust for eternal life is still in Christ, that hasn't changed. I was incorrect in my information that I mentioned above, and when I learned the truth and felt the Spirit, I followed It.

    I learned that you people who want to try and change our minds are powerless against the Holy Spirit's work in our lives, and you can try to cause dissension among God's children, but the Lord's plans will not be frustrated. Even though I doubted God and his love for me, he still decided to be merciful and show me the correct path.

    To answer your question as a recent convert, Joseph, the answer is no. The Lord will have His voice heard in the lives of His children, despite anything that Satan throws at us. I have a solid testimony of the power of God to change lives. :-)

  47. Congratulations Dotty. I am happy for you.

    Leah, there you go judging me again and we have never even met. Yes, my questions were silly because they were so simple. Yet, you couldn't answer them. If you believe all we have to do is accept Jesus' sacrifice and we are saved, then all of His other teaching, and the rest of the Bible are just words that don't mean anything. The worst part about this conversation is how you go as far as saying we will basically be condemned by our good works because Christ will say he didn't know us. That is absurd and the thought process of the devil.

    Yes we are saved by Grace and we can't do it ourselves. But to think that all the other teachings don't matter because we accept Christ's sacrifice is ridiculous and is not taught in the Bible. This is a well written article that you should read: http://www.jefflindsay.com/faith_works.html

  48. I explained why I chose not to answer your questions, you framed them in a way that has nothing to do with what Christianity teaches nor is it what Christians believe. No pastors stand up in any Christian church and say "don't feed the poor" or "don't be kind, it doesn't matter!" WHO SAID THEY DON'T MATTER?? You are delusional. They are just not a requirement for salvation. Did you not read about the thief on the cross?

    I also did not say you would be condemned by your good works, do not put words into my mouth. I said they would not be enough to save you, and if that is all you are relying on to prove you know Jesus you might be surprised when Jesus says he doesn't know you. Good works don't condemn anyone, they just aren't going to get you to heaven nor are they proof you have a relationship with God. There are many atheists that do great works, are they going to live with God when they die?

    I think it is rich that someone who called me out by laughing at my beliefs, calling me dumb, and saying I am of the devil several times has the nerve to say I am judging them. Get over yourself. You got in over your head, you thought I was just some Christian who's pastor had told her a few things. I guarantee I know more about your religion and church history than you do, so you might want to stop acting like I don't know what goes on in your church or what you talk about behind closed doors with other members. I know, I've been there, I've heard it, I've been taught it. And I know how you talk about Christians, and it is NOT Christ like. You've never met me, but you treated me as if you and your beliefs were superior to mine with pride and arrogance. What is your church teaching you? Answer these questions:

    1. Be humble, meek, and kind OR

    It doesn't matter because I belong to the only true church and do lots of good works so I am better than everyone so I get to become a god.

    2. Love they Neighbor OR

    It doesn't matter because I belong to the only true church and do lots of good works so I am better than everyone so I get to become a god.

    This seems to be the path you take. This is absurd and the thought process of the devil.

    I also see you didn't deny any of my "judgments" so it's probably safe to say you are a cradle Mormon and have never stepped foot into a Christian church, right? And you are human right? So it's safe to say, unless you are Jesus, you have broken God's commandments, right? It's not judging, it's a fact. It's also a fact that Mormons are very uncomfortable with accepting that they are sinners and hate having it pointed out, but they have no problem pointing their fingers at others. Like calling them dumb and laughing at their beliefs.

    When you are working to become a god, it's hard to admit you just might not make the cut. Takes a lot of pride for a person to actually believe they will be good enough to be a god. Pride comes before a fall.

  49. I cannot stomach Jeff Lindsay, his tactic is to bore you to tears by writing on and on and on, until you just give up because you can't read anymore of his ramblings. He cannot give a clear, concise answer about any topic. Biblical answers do not have to be talked to death with thousands of words, they can be simple and straightforward if you know what you are talking about and understand it. God's word was meant for every man, and does not take a blow hard talking for hours to explain it. So thanks anyway, but I would rather spend hours reading my Bible where the real truth is.

  50. You are such a hypocrite. You call me prideful and arrogant, yet it's like you don't even read what you write. You criticized my first comment to you saying I was judging you, when I didn't. But yet every single comment you have made has been judging me. Your church's main belief is that all you have to do to be saved is believe in Christ's sacrifice. Which makes every other commandment and teaching in the Bible, just a suggestion. Your church teaches that if you accept Christ, then you will be saved. But if you are Mormon or Catholic, and accept Christ, that won't count.

    Again. you don't know me and you don't know the extent of my knowledge. Don't tell me you know more about my own religion than I do when you have never met me. And yes I have been to other churches (we got invited to go a few times when I was on my mission).

    Of course you won't read Jeff Lindsay, because it actually makes sense and your brain can't handle any kind of logic (Again going back to the "all we need to do is accept Christ's sacrifice" belief, and every other teaching in the Bible doesn't matter for salvation. That's just simple basic logic that seems to be very hard for you to grasp).

    Yes, Mormon's are scared they won't "make the cut" and they do understand they are sinners. That is why we teach so much about repentance. Thanks for completely over generalizing every single person in my religion. You obviously don't know how we view other Christian religions and quit acting like you know everything about my religion, because you don't.

  51. You obviously don't understand sarcasm. Did you not realize I was taking your statements and turning them back around on you to get you to open your eyes? I took all of your questions, comments, and insults almost verbatim and threw them back at you. You really don't see that? Really? Here, I'll do it again…My questions were simple Mike, yet you couldn't answer them. Why didn't you answer my questions? Wow, you're really not that dumb are you? They were so simple.

    Seeing any parallels yet? Why don't you read through your posts again, then mine…maybe then you'll get it. If I was being judgmental and prideful, it was because I was using your words.

    You called me out, insulted me, laughed at my beliefs, called me of the devil…now you are saying that I don't like Jeff Lindsay because "my brain can't handle it", insinuating again that I am too dumb to understand him? Come on, Mike, surely you can see your error in this. You really don't see how I was quoting you and turning your questions and comments back on you to try and make YOU see how judgmental, nasty, and prideful YOU were being? When I say all people are ugly sinners, it is not being judgmental, it is quoting God's word which is Truth. Take off the blinders man, rip them off!

    And I know I am a hypocrite. I know I am prideful. I am a terrible, evil sinner! That is why I need a Savior! I have no problem admitting it. If I were perfect, I wouldn't need Jesus. I need Him more than anything, He is my saving grace. Praise God I know Him, otherwise I would be destined for hell for breaking God's commandments. Even though according to you I am of the devil, I know I will live with God in heaven when I die, not because of me or anything I did, but because of Him and His precious blood that can cover all sin. So that we might become HIS righteousness. All the glory to God!

    I was not even speaking to you before, but since you piped in I will now…when you die, you go before Jesus (Joseph Smith won't be there) and you tell him Lord Lord I did many wonderful works in your name I am worthy and deserve to go to heaven! I will tell him I did nothing good enough, I am not worthy, I deserve death, but I had faith in Him, I trusted His word, believed on Him and His promise and His sacrifice was enough. We will see where it gets us.

    Have a nice life.

  52. I would like to mention that from the above post by "mike" he keeps talking about my "church" and what my "church" is telling me and what my "church" believes. I would like to point out he does not even know what church I attend and is making complete assumptions, I never even said I attend a church. So I'd like to clear up this next point for Mormons…

    Mormons have this assumption that all people believe in the actual institution they attend. As LDS, we speak of "The Church" and say it is the only true church on earth, and there is a strong belief in that institution almost as if it is a living, breathing entity. I know, I went there for 20 years. The Mormon church teaches the same thing no matter what ward you attend, and everyone has a testimony of "the church being true". The strong LDS culture revolves around "the church," it is the Mormon way of life. They depend on "the church" and they are taught what they need to know at "the church."

    IT IS NOT LIKE THAT WITH CHRISTIANS! Please stop speaking about our churches in that manner, we don't hold those beliefs like you do! Church is just a place we go to praise and worship God and fellowship with other believers. Our churches in themselves hold no truth, they are not the basis of our faith, Jesus is. If all the churches were to be destroyed it would not change anything to us. We are a body of believers and can worship God anytime anyplace. We can read God's Word and pray and still be Christians without ever stepping foot inside a church for our WHOLE LIVES. I know this concept is very foreign to all of you and probably hard to grasp, it was to me when I was a Mormon. But that is how it is outside of the bubble of Mormonism. You cannot pin Christians down to "one church," we are not defined by a church. We are defined by being followers of Christ, we have freedom and liberty in Him. It has nothing to do with what church we attend, if we attend at all. We follow Jesus, not a "church."

  53. It's hard for me to understand why this is even a question anymore. Joe smith saw "an angel of light". He organized a band of murderers. He falsified (AT LEAST) the book of abraham. He sent false prophets out "into the world" to teach "another gospel". Is mormonism from God? Well, maybe. Maybe it is the strong delusion for those who refused to believe the truth. THAT'S ACTUALLY MY GUESS.

  54. Greg that would be my guess too…after talking to many stalwart Mormons you can't believe the level of blindness and pride. When one closes his mind to the possibility that they COULD be wrong, there is no cold hard fact that would override their belief. Very strong delusion.

  55. Leah, you were only being an arrogant jerk because you were copying my words? You are so full of crap. Yes I did realize when you were trying to use my words (kind of like what a 1o year old would do in an argument). But acting like an arrogant jerk did not come from my words. I didn't call you dumb straight out, but I did in a round about way for a belief that I think contradicts itself, and I apologize for that. I didn't not call you of the devil. I was saying that belief came from the devil because the devil wants you to be lazy and think you don't have to do anything for salvation. He made people take a scripture out of context and make it live in a silo. However all the places (especially in the book of Revelation) that talk about being judged, or in James where it talks about needed works in order to have faith, are completely disregarded. If you believe that all you have to do for salvation is to believe in Christ's sacrifice, then all of the other teachings, commandments, and ordinances talked about in the Bible, are completely worthless to salvation.

    Why would you say, "otherwise I would be destined for hell for breaking God’s commandments." and then right after that, " I know I will live with God in heaven when I die, not because of me or anything I did, but because of Him and His precious blood that can cover all sin." That doesn't make sense. If you believe all you have to do is believe in Christ's sacrifice, then why does it matter if you break God's commandments because you will be saved anyway. It's contradictory. You can't have one all encompassing belief that negates all of the other commandments and teachings, and still believe in those commandments or teachings that were negated. What am I missing? How do you view the other commandments and teachings if all you have to do is believe in Christ's sacrifice?

    So what church do you attend? Your beliefs sound very Protestant, maybe Born Again. And please stop referring to yourselves as Christians as a way to separate yourselves from the Mormon church. Mormon's are Christians.

    Remember when you said, "I was raised in the Mormon church and was a member for 32 years." and then a few comments later you said, "I went there for 20 years." So which is it, 32 years or 20 years? And why did you leave the Mormon church? Did someone offend you? Did you have a problem with a particular teaching?

  56. Oops, I said didn't not in my last comment, which doesn't make sense. What I meant was, "I didn’t call you of the devil."

  57. Greg – "organized a band of murderers." These guys were persecuted, beaten, and killed for their beliefs, and you have the nerve to call them murderers? That's messed up, and you should re-think your comments.

    Joseph Smith did see an Angel and did see God. How many prophets in the Bible saw an Angel or God? It happened quite often. If Joseph Smith is the man to restore Christ's gospel for this last dispensation, God would have to appear to him, and would have to send messengers to teach him and to give him the Priesthood authority. And this happened several times in the Bible, why is it so hard to believe it happens now, before the world ends, when the world will be the most wicked and in need of a prophet?

    When someone has a witness from God that these things are true, their beliefs are going to be very strong. That's why stalwart Mormons don't budge on their beliefs. They actually know without a doubt that these things are true. Why would they budge if they have had a witness from God?

  58. Just to explain fully, which I have done before, but so as not to be called a liar…I was born into the Mormon church,baptized at 8, attended regularly for the first 20 years of my life. After that I attended here and there on special occasions but what was known as an "inactive member" until age 32 when I had my name removed from the records. Actually I may have been age 33 when the name came off…Point is I had my name removed around that age so I was a member until age 32-33, but I truthfully say I only attended regularly (weekly meetings plus activities) for 20 years.

    There are 2 judgments spoken of in the Bible, the Bema and Great White Throne. One is for the saved, one is for the lost. Study your Bible. In James, what does he say you must have first? Faith. All of those things will come with the Spirit once one has received it and they are guideline to live by. Faith is first and required. The thief on the cross did not have time to show "proof of his faith" through works, but he still went to paradise. Because he had faith that Jesus would save him. Study your Bible. You say I throw out the parts of the Bible that speak of works, but you throw out the parts that speak of Jesus being the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. How do you reconcile that to your beliefs?

    "Why would you say, “otherwise I would be destined for hell for breaking God’s commandments.” and then right after that, ” I know I will live with God in heaven when I die, not because of me or anything I did, but because of Him and His precious blood that can cover all sin.” That doesn’t make sense"

    How does that not make sense?? I will state how I am saved again, since it doesn't make sense to you: through the gift of grace and being washed in of the blood of Christ through my faith. It is by HIS righteousness, not mine. Yes, I have broken God's commandments, so have you. How do I know? The Bible tells me so. All have fallen short of the glory of God. Study your Bible. Study the Word on your own, and ask God for understanding.

    Jesus said you MUST be born again to reach the kingdom of God, and I am born again so I know I will live with God when I die. I am a born again Christian, but you cannot pin me to a denomination with that. I attend a non-denominational Bible church at the moment, but I have attended other services in other states as well. I am not a member of any church, I do not want to be because it does not define me.

    What about those who got a different witness from God? What if someone sincerely read the BOM and got the answer it wasn't true? I have spoken to other ex-Mormons who did this and did not get the answer you received. I read it and received witness from God that it is not true. Then you stalwarts just say "you must not have been sincere enough" or "you really didn't read it with an open heart." It CAN'T be that you are wrong. It CAN'T be that the BOM isn't true. You got warm fuzzy feelings proving it! You know what you know what you know, and all other witness of God to others must be false somehow.

    So why do you care to know what my reasons for leaving the church are, you wouldn't believe them anyway. You would say it is a problem with me or I was just offended or didn't read the BOM with sincerity, because it couldn't be a problem with YOUR church, or YOUR doctrine, or YOUR witness. You KNOW your church is true and you have no intention of "budging" or considering you are the one who got the wrong "witness." And that's fine, enjoy. I know where I am going after this life, to be with my Lord God in heaven. I don't know about you, but I know most Mormons don't really know where they are going, they hope to make it as far as possible. Or they think they're going to be where someone else is because they were sealed to them.

    My confidence has everything to do with Jesus and my witness from God. True peace.

  59. Are the FLDS or RLDS Mormons?

    Warren Jeffs believes in Joseph Smith, he even had his picture on the walls of the compound! The name "Latter Day Saints" is right there in the title of their church! They believe in the BOM too. So the answer is yes, they are Mormon. Right?

  60. I have had a witness of the Book of Mormon being true, and that's why it is hard for me to believe somebody would get a witness saying it wasn't true. If 2 people do the exact same thing, they should get the exact same results. If they get a different result, then something wasn't exactly the same. That's just how logic works in everybody's brain, so, a stalwart Mormon is going to stick to their witness even if somebody else says they got a different answer.

    You said, "but you throw out the parts that speak of Jesus being the fulfillment of the law and the prophets." That's not true. I fully believe Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and without his grace I cannot be saved. No unclean thing can dwell with God, and Jesus fulfills that law with His blood and sacrifice. But we have to do more than just believe in His sacrifice. We have to repent (just like the thief on the cross). We have to try our best when we have received that knowledge of the commandments and his teachings. We also need the saving ordinances whether they are done in this life or in the next.

    If you think the Book of Mormon is not true, then where did it come from? Keep in mind Joseph Smith had the education of a 4th grader. His wife even said, "Joseph Smith could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter; let alone dictating a book like the Book of Mormon." He also had no knowledge of the middle eastern area as nobody in that time period actually traveled to the middle east. In fact, his wife said, “When he stopped for any purpose at any time he would, when he commenced again, begin where he left off without any hesitation, and one time while he was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, ‘Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?’ When I answered, ‘Yes,’ he replied, ‘Oh! [I didn’t know.] I was afraid I had been deceived.’ He had such a limited knowledge of history at that time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls.”

    Also, the Bible and Book of Mormon are loaded with chiasms. This form of writing wasn't discovered until several years after the Book of Mormon was published, so how would Joseph Smith know to write that way?

    Also, if we are all God's children, why would Christ only visit the Jerusalem area, such a small area compared to the rest of the world? I would hate to believe the only people he cared about at that time were located in that small area. In John 10:16 it says, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;" So where are these other "sheep" that weren't part of the Jerusalem "fold", and where is the record of Jesus visiting them if it is not the Book of Mormon?

    You said, "So why do you care to know what my reasons for leaving the church are, you wouldn’t believe them anyway." I had no intention of making fun of you or putting you down. I just was curious as to where your hatred for the Mormon Church came from.

    The FLDS and RLDS churches are not Mormon just because they believe in the Book of Mormon. The same reason that not everybody that believes in the Bible are Catholic. They are a break off of the Church and not the actual Church. They do not hold any Priesthood keys or any authority from God.

    And keep in mind, Mormon is just a nickname because we have the Book of Mormon, but the actual name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (I'm sure you knew that, but just in case somebody else reading didn't. Plus, it's much easier to type out Mormon, than it is to type out the full Church name every time I reference the Church)

  61. So just because the FLDS or RLDS have the same name (FLDS IS Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints), believe in the same prophet, and the same scripture, they are not members of the Mormon church? They are a "break off"? Hmmm…

    Can you not see why Christians (yes Christians, the Catholics do not have a copyright on the Bible) would not recognize Mormons as part of the body of Christ even though you say you believe in Jesus and the Bible? You guys are missing a few key essential things also, I will use your nice term that the Mormon church is a "break off" as well since no one likes the "c" word. By the way the name of your church has been changed 3 times, and for 4 years it did not have the name of Jesus in it at all. His name was actually removed and it was called the Church of the Latter Day Saints.

    I wonder if you have read anything other than just what the church authorizes you to read. You know with the internet you can learn the truth about all sorts of things, not just the scrubbed clean version of church history they want you to know. Like how many wives Joseph Smith really had, or better yet how many did Emma even know about? How many accounts of the first vision are there, or how Joseph prophesied that his son would be the prophet of the church after him (which he was, of the RLDS) , that JS drank wine on several documented occasions AFTER he gave the word of wisdom including the day he was murdered in jail…and these are just the icing on the cake! How about JS was not like a lamb to the slaughter, he fought back before his death by shooting and killing 2 men! They never show THAT happening in the videos the church shows! Or that when he went to the window and yelled "Oh Lord, my God!" it was the beginning of the Masonic distress signal…and the handshakes, temple clothes, and rituals were stolen from the Masonic rites by Joseph Smith? Joseph Smith was not some dumb hayseed as portrayed, both his parents were teachers and he read the Bible extensively. There are records of his mother stating all the wonderful, detailed stories he would tell and she couldn't believe the imagination that came from him. He had 7 years to write the BOM, surely you think that is enough time for anyone to come up with a book. As for the chiasmus, the Doctrine and Covenants has examples of the same patterns. Since Joseph Smith dictated the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants, and it is not claimed that they were translations of ancient writings, obviously this pattern was part of Smith's style. The Pearl of Great Price and JS's diary exhibit similar patterns. The poetic style may not have been named or "discovered" until after the BOM was written, but it was there in the Bible already for him to imitate. All explainable if you know the facts. These things are in your church history, from Mormon sources, but unless one digs they are never aware.

    Maybe you know all these things and don't care, I don't know. I don't "hate" anyone or anything (except maybe spiders, eww) I just like to tell Mormons that the truth and the facts are out there, if you want to know the truth all you have to do is search. I was in the same state of delusion, I was never told these things, I was in the dark and discouraged from looking at anything besides what the church authorizes you to look at. I never looked at Jesus the way I do now in the Mormon church, he was always just a footnote to the religion. I like urging Mormons to think, that's all.

    If you know all this stuff and the real church history (including Mountain Meadows and the rest of it) and still choose to be a Mormon, fine! Great! I have lots of family who don't know any of this stuff and it kills me to see them led around like sheeple by church leadership. It's not hatred, it's concern and offering the chance to take the blinders off…something they will never get inside the church. I was told it was from Satan to research the church or question it's leaders, or to look at what others said about it. That is thought killing and mind control that all "break off" groups tend to use. I want others to have freedom in Christ.

    Someone once said, "I used to be Mormon, then I got a library card." I'd have to second that.

  62. If you aren't aware of some of these things, don't believe me, search for yourself. The facts are there, you just need a desire for truth to search it out.

  63. Also the "other sheep" Jesus was talking about were the Gentiles.

    Jesus or Yeshua came through the Israelite's because they are God's chosen people. God chose the Jews to send His message to the world and preserve His word. Jesus was Jewish and His message was to the Jews. He came to them because they were God's chosen people and should have recognized Him as their Messiah from all God had revealed to them about Him…but He also came for the Gentiles and His sacrifice would be for everyone-His "other sheep" besides the Jews. It has nothing to do with God loving them more than anyone else, that is nonsense. He needed to have a people to do all the above and be His light unto the world. That is why His Messiah was Jewish and His message sent to Jerusalem. As you can see though, His message is now extended to all through Jesus, He sent His son to die for all of us! That is how much He loves us. And it doesn't mean He has to send books to all the different countries and all the different peoples to prove His love for us. He already sent His son.

  64. "So just because the FLDS or RLDS have the same name (FLDS IS Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints), believe in the same prophet, and the same scripture, they are not members of the Mormon church? They are a “break off”? Hmmm…"

    When people say "Mormons" they generally mean members of the LDS Church. The FLDS and RLDS are not part of the LDS Church technically, legally, or any other way, just as Mormons are not members of the Catholic Church in any way. "Christianity" is not a church, nor is it a "religion" if by religion someone means a specific church or a specific legal entity. If the FLDS or RLDS want to call themselves Mormons in the same sense that Mormons call themselves Christians they're free to do so, but it just doesn't make much sense because most people don't use the term Mormon that way, but rather they use it to refer to members of the LDS Church and therefore the use of the term by any other group creates confusion. But most people, when using the term "Christian" are not referring to a member of any specific religion, but merely a person who believes in Christ.

    "Can you not see why Christians (yes Christians, the Catholics do not have a copyright on the Bible) would not recognize Mormons as part of the body of Christ even though you say you believe in Jesus and the Bible?"

    It seems to be our active proselytizing of members of other Christian faiths that engenders hostility. If the leaders of other Christian faiths, who teach that it doesn't really matter what church you belong to as long as its Christian, were to accept Mormons as Christians, then the fear is that they would lose all their parishioners to the Mormon faith, since we are out actively recruiting converts, and then those preachers would be out of business and lose their livelihoods. In order to keep making money, they have to figure out a way to keep the members of their churches from leaving, and one way to do that is to malign the LDS Church. I'll accept other reasons as well, but I think this is a major one. If no other church paid their ministry, I suspect there would be less antagonism on their part towards the LDS Church. I offer no proof, that's just my opinion.

    "I wonder if you have read anything other than just what the church authorizes you to read."

    The Church doesn't "authorize" or "deauthorize" anyone to read anything other than full-time missionaries. You make it sound as though the Church controls what we have access to, or tells us "These books are ok, these books are not ok." The Church has its official curriculum, of course, and of course the Church focuses in this curriculum on those things that are most important, and that are faith-promoting. The Church, through its subsidiaries such as Deseret Book and the Church colleges, publishes or sells an enormous amount of reading material, some of it including all the things you've mentioned above, just go and read Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman.

    "I was in the same state of delusion, I was never told these things, I was in the dark and discouraged from looking at anything besides what the church authorizes you to look at. I never looked at Jesus the way I do now in the Mormon church, he was always just a footnote to the religion."

    "I was told it was from Satan to research the church or question it’s leaders, or to look at what others said about it."

    This is so different than my experience in the Church, and I've attended in multiple countries and many of the states in the US, that it's hard for me to believe we have ever been members of the same church. I started doing research a few years ago, I've read pretty much everything you've ever mentioned, I've researched these issues, and the more I study stuff, including all the anti-Mormon stuff, the more convinced I am of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and the teachings in general of the LDS Church.

    "Also the “other sheep” Jesus was talking about were the Gentiles."

    What proof is there for this statement, other than your own interpretation? How do you know the LDS interpretation is incorrect?

  65. The one person on here Mormons should listen to is Leah as she knows more about what your church teaches than I or other Christians do as she was a member of the Mormon church for many years but she already has two strikes against her going in with Mormons in any discussions as she, in your eyes, is an apostate and you won't to listen to apostates.

  66. I don't know how you can say nobody is listening to her, there are many of us spending inordinate amounts of time listening to her and responding to her questions and comments. We just don't agree with her on many points. A large part of the problem is that she keeps saying we believe things we don't believe. It's one thing to tell someone you don't believe what they believe, it's another to tell them they believe something they don't believe, and Leah engages in the latter quite a bit. Leah's comments on this blog have shown that her knowledge of the LDS Church and its doctrines is quite limited. That might mean she still knows more about the LDS Church than many others commenting here, but it should not be thought that this is saying much.

  67. For you to say the main reason Christians oppose Mormonism is what comes down to money is a complete lie. I am sure somewhere someplace there may be a pastor concerned with only money just as their are Mormons who have the same concern, but for you to say that is the main reason for the Christian opposition is your conjecture coming from the brainwashing you have about evil Christians from your church. You have been told that Christians are all about money because they have paid clergy, and they are an abomination to God straight from JS. Do not try to deny it either, I have heard it personally taught, your missionaries go door to door telling people how Christianity is false. Where is your proof that this is the main reason? Answer: you have none. Just what you have been told manifests itself into your opinion of Christians pastors.

    Your church has PAID CLERGY too Joshua! Just because your local bishop does not receive pay, that doesn't change the fact that your leaders, prophets, apostles, ALL receive pay! And no one even knows how much, so don't come back with your "they receive a small salary" propaganda unless you have some facts to back up how much they make. At least pastors post on their church walls how much they make. Open your eyes. I wonder if it's the same paid leaders you have that are telling you the "evil" Christians only care about money. Hmmmm…

    I am not a pastor nor do I make ANY money off witnessing to Mormons, so what is my motive? I have NO interest in witnessing to them nor do I gain anything material from it. Did you ever think we care about the souls of the Mormons? Did you ever think we love our Mormon family and friends and want to see them come to a saving relationship with Jesus to set them free of their burdens? That would be the MAIN reason. Unless your opinion is that Christians are of the devil, you would have to change your opinion.

    I am always discredited for my personal experience in the Mormon church. It always has to be my problem, or my perception, or my wrong judgement! I always get "that's not how it is at MY ward." How about accepting your church is not perfect for once? I know personally 4 other Mormons (and have heard stories from hundreds more whom I don't personally know) who got the same perception of the church and it's teachings and are either not members anymore or are inactive. What about them? Do you not believe them either? We all have to be wrong because the CHURCH cannot be! More brainwashing that the church is true. Seriously, if you guys want to improve yourselves, listen to those who have left the church and FIX the problems instead of living in your bubble of denial. There are thousands who have left the church, and the numbers are growing with the information available now on the internet. Out of the 13 million number that is given for members, it is estimated that only about half are active and numbers of convert baptism's by missionaries have dropped. Are you listening yet?

    "The Church doesn’t “authorize” or “deauthorize” anyone to read anything other than full-time missionaries."

    Really? Tell me Joshua, can you get your temple recommend renewed if you have been reading anti-Mormon literature or engaging in anti-Mormon materials?? Answer honestly now. I would say that's a way to "authorize" what you read or don't read, wouldn't you agree?

  68. The only thing I wasn't sure about was the God/Mary sex thing, that just came from my Mom and was not taught to me personally at church, and I said that. But the rest of the stuff I tell you I was taught it personally at the LDS church. Other things come from my Mormon family saying it is true…maybe you are being taught the watered down version of Mormonism that is emerging to be accepted into the Christian world? If you ask older LDS members, they were taught different things. Just like the LDS in Brigham Young's day who were taught the Adam/God doctrine…now you say that is not true and was never doctrine! I bet they thought it was.

  69. "…if the bible is the 'end all be all' and is completely translated correctly, then my question to you is, which version? There are so many translations and versions of the bible and they all say different things. So, which one is the correct one because they can’t all be translated correctly since they are all slightly different?"

    Learn Hebrew and Greek. Then go read the ancient manuscripts of the Scriptures written in its original language. That should help.

    Here's an example of translation: Joshua and Jesus are English names. Yashua is Hebrew for Jesus. Iesous is Greek for Jesus. Iesus is Latin for Jesus. Yashua is Hebrew for Joshua. Iesous is Greek for Joshua. Iesus is Latin for Joshua. Joshua means "a savior or deliverer." Jesus means "a savior or deliverer."

    Does the slight variation of the Lord's name make the English translation incorrect? Hardly at all.

  70. We aren't talking about variations of names. The new translations completely change the meaning of several verses. And the translations vary from version to version.

    It is pretty obvious that the Bible is not the end of God's word if you just look at how the Bible was created (or use common sense). Yes, the Bible was written by Prophets, and Apostles. Then, A group of men got together and decided what writings would go into the Bible. These men were not the same people that wrote the Books in the Bible. So what if Paul or Moses wrote something else that was inspired by God and these men that put together the Bible didn't include it (which I'm sure they wrote more than what is in the Bible)? Why wouldn't you accept it as scripture? You trust the people that put together the Bible too much instead of accepting what is inspired by God just because it isn't in the Bible.

  71. Mike,

  72. Mike, the Dead Sea Scrolls pre-date the Council of Nicea. If something was changed it would have been found.

    I find it interesting that David calls God's word a lamp to his feet and a light to his path. The lamp in the tabernacle and temple had 66 parts. The Bible has 66 parts.

  73. Good point Iconoclast. More proof that the Bible is not the end of God's word seeing how they were studying scriptures (the dead sea scrolls) before the Bible was even created. And yes, the Dead Sea Scrolls have a lot of translation differences to the current versions of the Bible (especially since each version of the Bible has translation differences). Also, keep in mind the Book of Mormon has words of Isaiah that are similar but different to the current Bible, yet translate closer to the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    Interesting about the lamp. It could be coincidence, or prophecy, or maybe it was even done on purpose by the people int the Council of Nicea. And there is no question that the Bible is the word of God, but it's not His only words. God didn't just stop talking, and it's really silly to think he did.

  74. It's also worth noting that many of the manuscripts of the Dead Sea Scrolls are not in the Bible. Does that mean they are not the word of God because they are not in the Bible? Absolutely not.

  75. The easy question to answer is “Was JS a true prophet?”

    The bible says it takes one false prophacey to know the difference.

    I encourage everyone to look for themselves, with an open mind,
    at as many sources they can get there hands(eyes) on.

    Sorry so lame, but the truth will set you free.
    Out Jeff

  76. If one man mistranslated the bible on purpose or many men mistranslated the Bible to suit their needs, Then we would have many Bibles just like the one ole’d Joe translated. then we would have many different Bibles and they would contradict each other like the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible. The burden is on Mormonism to prove what parts of the Bible have been mistranslated.

    • If it were the objective of the LDS Church to compel everyone to believe our doctrine then I suppose you would be right, that the burden of proof would be upon us. But our objective is merely to share what we believe. It is up to those who hear our message to decide whether they want to know the truth of it. If they do not, that is their choice. If they do, they have the tools at their disposal to prove to themselves if the things we say are true.

    • If it were the objective of the LDS Church to compel everyone to believe our doctrine then I suppose you would be right, that the burden of proof would be upon us. But our objective is merely to share what we believe. It is up to those who hear our message to decide whether they want to know the truth of it. If they do not, that is their choice. If they do, they have the tools at their disposal to prove to themselves if the things we say are true.

      • Agreed

    • Look at the restoration. The king-James bible is said to be the most correct in the LDS religion. It may not be entirely correct, but it is mostly correct. The book of mormon doesn’t contradict the Bible, the Book of Mormon is another testament of Christ, and Heavenly father and eternal life. They work together. Modern revelation to our day is said through the prophet. The prophet gets the words to say from praying for us, and the lord puts the words in his mouth or gives the prophet revelation to spread to everyone in our day, or even to emphasize certain principles according to what is the biggest problem for our day, and how to achieve joy and eternal life, etc.

  77. I also think those who had said they had prayed and god told them to join another church other than the LDS church, I feel like they need to take it bit by bit and piece by piece and it will help them personally be able to understand the amazing and big gospel that the LDS Church had informed of us based of the modern, and old revelation of god compared to the modern day. So I believe that for some individuals, they believe that they had been answered by saying go to this other church. Over-time they can understand the gospel better and then be prepared to learn more about it through our church. LDS church.

  78. Having visited Ritvgnion for many years i think its a great use for the area, I thought it was a shame when the Trim Trail was taken down, my children used to love it, it certainly got them off the games console, Maybe go ape could consruct another trim trail, it would give children the incentive to go out in the country again, i love walking but they find it boring it was a incentive for them.What about the rest of the park? Lever park is more than just the bottom part near the Barn

  79. If it’s all done on yutube hits then Berries and Cream shits on Gorilla by a bloody mile. Where’s the award for Berries and Cream? At the very least it should get one for not being stolen, it should also get one for being fucking hilarious (hilariouser than gorilla).*Realises advertising is just a load of opinions and doesn’t really matter**gets proper job*

  80. I can’t believe I’ve been going for years without knowing that.

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