What’s with Satan and the fruit in the Garden of Eden?

In response to a question asked in the “Ask a Mormon Anything” section.

Q: Mormons think the fall was necessary to bring about God’s plan, so why would Satan encourage the fall? Wouldn’t that be helping to bring about God’s plan? Wouldn’t he have tried to get Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the fruit, so no spirit children would get bodies?

Also, if God had a plan for all spirit children to come and get a body, but then sent Adam and Eve to earth telling them not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge which would bring about procreating…doesn’t that make Him a God of trickery? He essentially was saying “Don’t eat the fruit! (please please please disobey me and DO eat the fruit so all the other spirit children can get bodies!) Sounds deceptive. Could you please give the Mormon theology behind this belief and how it makes any sense? Thanks.

A: Disclaimer: My answer here is my own speculation, and should not be interpreted as anything approaching LDS Church doctrine.

In LDS temples Mormons watch a video that tells the story of the creation of the earth and the Garden of Eden. In that story, most of which would be familiar to any Christian, God puts Adam and Eve in the Garden, and tells them they can eat any fruit of any of the trees except the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which we will hereafter refer to as the TKGE. Lucifer/Satan tempts Eve into partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, Eve gets Adam to eat it, and Adam and Eve are kicked out of the Garden (the Fall) into the world we live in today and they have kids, etc.

Where Mormons differ from some of Christendom is that we believe that the Fall was a necessary and planned event, hence the question above of why Satan would participate and encourage an event that was necessary and planned, as though he were helping God. If Satan wanted to frustrate God and tick Him off, why not get Adam and Eve not to take the fruit? Great questions! Here’s my theory…

It’s all about timing. That is, it was God’s plan all along for Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, but for it to be done in God’s own time, when things were prepared. What Satan was doing by getting Adam and Eve to eat the fruit was to try and take control of the process himself and mess things up, not to do something that otherwise would have been done, but to do it at a different time than it would have been done. When God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit, he wasn’t saying “Don’t eat it now or ever” he was saying “Don’t eat it until I tell you to.” But of course he didn’t need to add “until I tell you to” he just said “Don’t eat it.” He’d come back later and say “Ok, now you can eat it.” But Satan did it before God did.

Why do I think this is the case? Because in that movie Mormon watch in the temple there is a part where God confronts Lucifer after he has given Adam and Eve the fruit and God asks “What are you doing here?” and Lucifer responds “I am doing that which has been done in other worlds.” God asks “What is that?” and Lucifer again responds “Giving of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to them.” referring to Adam and Eve.

This seems to suggest that this is not the first time this process of introducing humans to a planet has occurred. It also appears to suggest that whenever a planet is populated, there is a “Garden of Eden”, although perhaps with a different name, and there is an Adam and an Eve, although also with different names and certainly different and unique individuals.

Lucifer appears to be attempting some humor with God, saying “Hey, what’s the big deal with me giving them the fruit? I’m just doing what is normally done.” But of course this is like the 4-year old child who feeds his 2-year old brother a huge bowl of ice cream and when he gets caught by his parents plays innocent and says “Hey, I’m just feeding him like you guys do!” Yeah, right. And “yeah, right” to Lucifer. Of course we know neither the 4-year-old nor Lucifer is innocent. Lucifer is trying to take the place of God, just as he did in the pre-mortal existence. “Fine, you’re going to kick me out of heaven? You won’t give me your glory? Well, I’m still going to go ahead and play God and let’s see how you like it.” seems to be the attitude Lucifer has.

So is there trickery on God’s part? No, I think He was going to give Adam and Eve the fruit himself, in his own due time. Of course he knows the future and knew what would happen, but it all ends up playing into His hands anyway, which must be incredibly frustrating for Satan. As for why Lucifer didn’t try to keep Adam and Eve from eating the fruit, that would have been a fruitless endeavor (pun intended), because Lucifer knew God was going to give them the fruit anyway. Lucifer couldn’t prevent them from eating the fruit, he could only get them to eat the fruit at the wrong time, so he committed as much mischief as he could within the bounds by which he was constrained.

Comments

  1. I always believed it was necessary that Adam and Eve "Transgress" and partake of the fruit. Notice that I did not say "sin", and the distinction is important. There were two commandments given:

    1 – Do not partake of the fruit or you will die, but choose for yourself

    2 – Multiply and replenish the earth

    In order to keep the 2nd commandment, they had to make a choice on the first. I don't think God would have given them the fruit. Satan had to do what he did because it is his nature, and God knew that was what would happen.

    • That's what I always assumed as well, and maybe you're right. I'm totally speculating but I do wonder if the transgression was a necessary part of the Fall. It seems to me that sin is what the Fall is all about, and that sin comes from having knowledge, and knowledge sufficient to sin came as a result of eating the fruit, so did the transgression really need to be in there?

  2. And yet the fall of Adam has always been taught to be the reason behind our need for redemption from physical death. Sin is the reason for the need of an Atonement or redemption from spiritual death. I'm sure I'm missing something, but I'll give it some more thought.

  3. But is the transgression really "the Fall" or was it just the event that started it? Was the real Fall the introduction into Adam and Eve's lives of the ability to sin? I'm sure I could study this quite a bit more too, I'm not making any statement, just speculating here. This is probably all spelled out in a General Conference talk or something in the public domain that I haven't seen yet.

  4. "Where Mormons differ from some of Christendom is that we believe that the Fall was a necessary and planned event"

    No, this is just one of the things where Mormons completely differ from ALL of Christendom. No Christians believe the fall was a good thing nor was it God's plan for us. Adam sinned, yes SINNED and brought sin into the world bringing it into it's fallen state. There are no sins greater than other sins in God's eyes. The Bible makes it clear that if you have broken one commandment, you have broken them all and all are guilty. Humans are the ones who try to rationalize their sin to be "less" than others which comes from pride. Christians also don't believe there were spirits waiting to get bodies so it was not necessary for Adam to sin to bring them about. With all the animals around "doing it" Adam and Eve could have figured out how to procreate without sinning. Adam named all the animals and spoke to God, so you cannot say he wasn't smart enough to figure it out. If we are not all sinners brought about by the sin nature in us from Adam's sin or transgression or whatever you want to call it, why did Jesus need to come and die to redeem us?

    So the world as it is today was "God's plan?" When little babies get beaten and battered, or children get raped, or innocent people are brutally murdered it is just part of the "plan?" This is what God had in mind? Sin, pain, and death? Think about that. Tell someone who has been abused and raped their whole life by a family member that it's just part of God's plan. Or little kids in Africa who only live til age 3 and starve to death that it's God's plan for them. This was NOT God's plan, it came from SIN. Adam had a choice, he was given freedom to choose, but he chose to disobey God and that is what happened to this world, sin. The fall was not a good thing, how can you look around you and say that? The fall was a tragedy and led to God having to come down here to suffer and die for us to get us out of this mess we created.

    • Exactly, hence the need for a Savior, which was God’s plan from the start. I know it does sound like trickery on God’s part, and I’ve wondered about this theology my whole life (I am mormon)–it just doesn’t make sense–why would the seemingly wrong thing (partaking of the fruit), actually be the right thing? But God’s whole plan would have been frustrated if Adam and Eve never partook of the fruit, so it was God’s intention from the beginning. God knew what they were going to do, and He gave them a choice. And after they chose, they had knowledge–they knew between right and wrong, good and evil, and they were therefore able to chose for themselves, which was to hopefully chose Christ and repent so they could return to Him. It’s all about choices and freedom.

      • I know I spelled choose wrong. sorry.

  5. Genesis 1:26-28

    26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY; FILL THE EARTH and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

    Book of Moses Chapter 2:28

    28 And I, God, blessed them, and said unto them: BE FRUITFUL, AND MULTIPLY, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    Genesis 1 and even chapter 2 from the Mormon Book of Moses both agree that God told Adam and Eve before the fall to be fruitful and multiply so the passage below that says if the fall never happened, then Adam and Eve would have never had any children is flat out wrong!

    So we have yet another contradiction to what the Mormon Church teaches where 2 Nephi even contradicts their own Book of Mose not to mention contradicting Genesis 1.

    From 2 Nephi 2:

    “And now, behold, IF ADAM HAD NOT TRANSGRESSED HE WOULD NOT HAVE FALLEN, BUT HE WOULD HAVE REMAINED IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. 23 AND THEY WOULD HAVE HAD NO CHILDREN; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. 24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. 25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.”

  6. @Leah

    "No, this is just one of the things where Mormons completely differ from ALL of Christendom. No Christians believe the fall was a good thing nor was it God’s plan for us. "

    Well, I was trying to give some traditional Christians the benefit of the doubt, but I'll take your word for it.

    "Adam sinned, yes SINNED and brought sin into the world bringing it into it’s fallen state. There are no sins greater than other sins in God’s eyes. The Bible makes it clear that if you have broken one commandment, you have broken them all and all are guilty. "

    Really? Stealing a piece of candy is just as bad as murder?

    "If we are not all sinners brought about by the sin nature in us from Adam’s sin or transgression or whatever you want to call it, why did Jesus need to come and die to redeem us?"

    I'm not sure we disagree on this point. Could you clarify, perhaps? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question.

    "So the world as it is today was “God’s plan?” When little babies get beaten and battered, or children get raped, or innocent people are brutally murdered it is just part of the “plan?” This is what God had in mind? Sin, pain, and death? Think about that. Tell someone who has been abused and raped their whole life by a family member that it’s just part of God’s plan. Or little kids in Africa who only live til age 3 and starve to death that it’s God’s plan for them. This was NOT God’s plan, it came from SIN. Adam had a choice, he was given freedom to choose, but he chose to disobey God and that is what happened to this world, sin. The fall was not a good thing, how can you look around you and say that? The fall was a tragedy and led to God having to come down here to suffer and die for us to get us out of this mess we created."

    That's an interesting perspective. I can see why it would be appealing to think that we could all be living in the Garden of Eden instead of in the world we've got. But what would be the point?

    @Kent

    That's a good question. The standard answer I've heard is the one Ask Gramps gives, which is that they were given conflicting commandments on purpose in order to grant them their agency, since without a choice they had no agency. I suppose you could then ask why they had to be given their agency at that point in time. If they had to eat of the fruit in order to have a knowledge of good and evil, why not just give the fruit to them to begin with? In fact, if this life is what they were intended for, what's the purpose of the Garden of Eden at all? Hmm, I'm going to have to do some research and think about this one. No guarantees that I'll find an answer, I might just come back with "I don't know" but we'll see.

    • What would be the point?! To avoid all of the misery! Satan wanted men to fall and it appears that Mormons want the same thing…

  7. Joshua, or the Book of Mormon is not the word of God and that is why it says that if Adam and Eve had remained in the Garden that they wouldn't have had any children but part of the word of God was copied from Genesis and put in the Mormon Book of Moses that says God told them before the fall to be fruitful and multiply.

    God doesn't lie so he wouldn't have told them to have children while they were in the garden if they weren't going to have any children if they remained in the garden.

    The creation account of the Book of Moses is the same as the one in Genesis with the exception of the Book of Moses adding that there was a spiritual creation before the physical creation.

    I believe that saying there was a spiritual creation before the physical creation are the words of man and not God though tacked on to the word of God.

  8. "God doesn’t lie so he wouldn’t have told them to have children while they were in the garden if they weren’t going to have any children if they remained in the garden."

    If I'm in my house, and my son is in my house, and I tell my son "Get the mail" am I a liar because I'm telling him to get the mail while he's in the house, but it's impossible for him to do this because the mailbox is outside the house? By your logic I am telling him that it's possible for him to get the mail without leaving the house.

    God commanded Adam & Eve to have children. How could this happen? They would have to eat the fruit and leave the Garden. Nowhere does God say they could stay in the Garden and have children. Nowhere does God say that this is his intention. You are reading something into the scriptures that doesn't exist.

    • Actually, procreating and having babies was going to be a part of the Edenic paradise. Remember God’s punishment towards Eve? After eating the fruit, her punishment was increased birth pains: Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee (Gen 3:16, ASV). Pain wouldn’t have been a factor in the Garden and this coupled with the fact that God said to multiply in chapter 1 and there you have it.

    • Don’t over complicate it :-)

  9. Joshua, take the account in the Book of Mormon that says Adam and Eve would not have had any children unless the fall happened out of the equation and we have God telling Adam and Eve to have children before the fall and there is nothing in the Bible that says they couldn't have had children if they had stayed in the Garden which, ironically, is backed up by the Mormon Book of Moses found in the Mormon canon in the Pearl of Great Price.

    So which is it? We can believe what the Bible says which is backed up in the account in the Mormon Book of Moses which was in effect copied from the Bible.

    OR

    Believe what the Book of Mormon says.

    Another Irony is how the Book of Mormon says in 2 Nephi 2:23-25 that people wouldn't have had joy because they wouldn't have known misery?

    On the contrary, they wouldn't have had anything but joy because wouldn't being in the presence of God forever be nothing short of pure joy? As, after all, isn't that what we all want anyway to know nothing but joy and never know misery again?

    So, no, the fall wasn't a good thing as nobody would have had to go through the pain that many go through now on this earth and none of us would have to return to where they already were as we would already be there.

    Why would Adam and Eve and, yes, their children, ever have wanted to live in the misery of what this world can be at times if they could have never left the presence of God?

    Of course, I am basing what I believe that the Book of Mormon isn't true and I think it is safe to assume that you believe that it is true and your belief is based on that.

    But you can't see the contradtction between the Biblical account and even the Book of Moses account and what is said in the BOM?

    • You just explained Satan’s plan. satan did not want choices he wanted a true dictatorship, God let’s us choose for ourselves, you can’t have true happiness without despair. Think about it if you had a constant feeling and had no idea what the feeling was, what would it be. Correct nothing!

  10. Add on to my last post, Joshua having sex in the context of marriage, in this case Adam and Eve's marriage, is not a sin so no, they would not have been sinning in the garden if they would have been imtimate and did what God said to do, "be fruitful and mulitply."

  11. "Well, I was trying to give some traditional Christians the benefit of the doubt, but I’ll take your word for it."

    What "traditional Christians" are you speaking about? I have heard of no Christian denomination that believes the fall was necessary and good…only the LDS. I even googled it, and nothing but you guys came up with that belief. So if you know which ones do, please share and I will stand corrected.

    'Really? Stealing a piece of candy is just as bad as murder?"

    You can consult God's word on this.

    "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker." James 2:10-12

    So yes, to God all sin is bad. He is PERFECT. So anything less than His standard of perfection is "sin" or "missing the mark." You break His law, you are a lawbreaker. It is a human idea to rate sin, and what it does is cause people to look down their noses at others thinking they are better than them. When you "rate" sin, you tend to look at the guy who has murdered as committing worse sin than yourself, because you've only stolen a piece of candy…but then you break the most important commandment of all: loving your neighbor as yourself. So either way, you're a lawbreaker. It's suppose to help you realize your need for a Savior. Both the murderer and thief need Jesus to save them because NO sin can enter the presence of God.

  12. "I can see why it would be appealing to think that we could all be living in the Garden of Eden instead of in the world we’ve got. But what would be the point?"

    The point would be to live in a perfect paradise where we lived and communed with God like Adam and Eve did. That is exactly where Christians desire to return too, that state we were created for! To live with God in a world without sin, and I, for one, cannot wait for that glorious day. When you have the desire to "progress" and become your own god, and have your own planet to rule over, I could see why this goal would seem "pointless."

  13. Ken:

    "Another Irony is how the Book of Mormon says in 2 Nephi 2:23-25 that people wouldn’t have had joy because they wouldn’t have known misery?

    On the contrary, they wouldn’t have had anything but joy because wouldn’t being in the presence of God forever be nothing short of pure joy? As, after all, isn’t that what we all want anyway to know nothing but joy and never know misery again? "

    Leah:

    "The point would be to live in a perfect paradise where we lived and communed with God like Adam and Eve did. That is exactly where Christians desire to return too, that state we were created for! To live with God in a world without sin, and I, for one, cannot wait for that glorious day."

    Ken and Leah, what you are missing is how would anyone know misery unless Adam had introduced sin into the world? We lived in a perfect state in our pre-mortal existance and the world was created so we could suffer through sin and find for ourselves the joy of following Jesus Christ.

    If you had never tasted a lemon or an orange could you tell me which one was good, and which one bitter? No, because you would have never tasted either. If we lived our entire existance never feeling pain, never losing a loved one, or never seing evil abound in the world we would never know what pain was. By contrast, if you lived this life in pure happiness and always received the answers you needed to every test you wouldn't know you were happy and living a great life because you know nothing else. You have to experience loss and pain to enjoy companionship and strength. That is a irrefutable fact, you cannot have happiness without sorrow, so we had to come to a fallen earth to experience this for ourselves.

    Some may say that we could simply learn from God what was good and what was evil, but you cannot learn without examples. Math cannot be taught without seeing the numbers. This principle is why Jesus taught in parables.

  14. @Kent, there is no contridiction. When you understand that God commanded Adam and Eve to multiple and replenish the earth and also commanded them not to partake of the tree. The Book of Mormon only clarifies when it says without partaking of the tree they would have remained in a perfect state in the Garden, but they could have no children. These scriptures help show us their state.

    Genesis 2:25 –

    "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

    Genesis 3:6-7 –

    "6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

    Here in Genesis 2&3 we see that before they ate of the tree they didn't understand they were naked and it wasn't until they partook that they realized they were naked and covered themselves. Therefore they wouldn't have understood what multiply and replenish the earth meant, and it wasn't until they partook that they could understand that commandment.

  15. Brian, so they obeyed God, to be fruitful and mulitply, by disobeying Him by eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge?

  16. Brian, as I said, take away the account in the Book of Mormon that says Adam and Eve wouldn't have had children if they had remained in the garden and I think you will see what I mean and even if they had remained there they could have had sexual relations there without thinking it was wrong to be naked, which they learned with the knowledge they gained from eating the fruit, because why would God had told them to be fruitful and mulitply if He didn't intend for Him to do just that?

    Again, God wanted them to obey Him so I do not believe He meant that they were to obey Him by disobeying Him by eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

    So if we just read the Biblical and even the Book of Moses creation account it has God telling them to have children and, as I said, He told them to do so before the fall. I suppose one could use the argument that the Book of Mormon was new revelation however, the Book of Moses was written after the Book of Mormon.

    So we can either believe the Bible and ironically the Book of Moses account, at least the part about being fruitful and multiplying.

    OR

    We can believe the Book of Mormon.

    As they are not the same.

  17. Brian, add on to my last post, of course I am basing what I believe that the Book of Mormon isn't true so I am just using the Bible as my source but you can't see the contradiction that even the Mormon Book of Moses agrees, at leaast on the point of God telling Adam and Eve to be fruitful and mulitply, before the fall happened?

    Not surprising as most of the creation account in the Book of Moses is in effect copied from the Bible.

    The part of the Book of Moses that I don't agree with that is added to the creation story is the part of there being a spiritual creation before the physical creation because I don't believe there were pre existent spirit children as the Bible teaches the spiritual comes comes after the physical.

    1 Corinthians 15:46

    46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

  18. Brian, the point you are missing is all of your reasoning comes from the mind of Joseph Smith. You cannot have any basis for your beliefs from the Bible, it doesn't support them. You have to delve into the world of Mormonism to come to the conclusion that the fall was good or that we were preexistent beings. Do you have any Biblical verses to back up your claim that we were perfect in the preexistence and HAD to come to a fallen earth to experience sin and misery? What would be the point of that if we were already perfect??

    We all know this leads into the "to be ready to become a god" discussion…another heresy from the mind of the overly ambitious Smith. If people don't believe in many gods, or that they can become one, your whole argument for why we had to "learn" and "progress" falls apart and makes no sense.

    As for Adam and Eve becoming aware that they were "naked," the Hebrew word used for "naked" could mean: to be naked as in without clothes OR: the uncovering of deceptions. Look up the word in Hebrew. So it was not as simple as just knowing they had no clothes on-they knew they had sinned! They were now aware of the shame of their sin and so they covered themselves with fig leaves (symbolizing their idea of trying to cover their own sin by their own means and works) which was unacceptable to God for covering their sin or "deception." It wasn't enough to redeem them by Gods standards! This is why God Himself then covered them with the skins of animals (symbolizing the only way to cover their sin was by the shedding of blood.) This was a foreshadowing of how God later would send His own Son to shed his blood as the only acceptable "work" to cover the sin of all people.

    Mormons don't even go into any of this of course, because it doesn't serve their purpose of advancing Mormonism and Joseph Smiths' teachings. But it's all about JESUS. Everything in the Bible points forward to Jesus or back to him. Not to Joseph Smith or becoming a god, no matter how much you try and twist it to fit your beliefs. Read the Bible looking at it through the lens of Jesus, not through the lens of Mormonism. And I don't mean to go making a glass set of real lenses affixed to a breast plate like Smith did, I meant a figurative lens.

  19. With the knowledge of the true context of the Adam and Eve story, it makes it even more disheartening that Mormons don their own "fig leaves" in the temple actually thinking their own works will cover their sin and be acceptable to God…

  20. No the Book of Mormon doesn't contradict the Book of Moses:

    " And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

    And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."

    (Moses 5:10-11)

    Ken:

    "because why would God had told them to be fruitful and mulitply if He didn’t intend for Him to do just that?"

    He did intend for them to do just that, because he knew that Satan was to be among them and tempt them to partake of the fruit.

    We are at the point of this debate where neither of us will yield on their conviction. I believe that the Book of Mormon paired with the Bible and Book of Moses gives us the clarity to know that Adam and Eve were given two commandments and in order to have children they needed to eat of the fruit. That is my belief, because I believe those simple truths were restored to the earth by a Prophet of God and I believe God has revealed that simlpe truth to me personally through His Holy Spirit.

    Your beliefs are your beliefs, but the purpose here is not to convert one another, but simply to elaborate on what we as Mormons believe, and to clarify misunderstandings such as you thinking the Book of Moses contradicts the Book of Mormon.

  21. @Leah, please elaborate your statement for me as I don't fully understand what you are saying. The "fig leaves" have nothing to do with covering sin. Also, one's works never cover sins; only Jesus Christ can cleanse us from sin through a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

  22. So out of curiosity, it sounds like both Ken and Leah, you would say that without the fall we would all be living on the earth without sin?

    But, would you acknowledge that we would never know the difference between good and evil because Adam and Eve wouldn't have eaten the fruit?

    I guess I am asking you to give an example of what you believe life would be like for us if Adam had not eaten of the fruit, and what the purpose of that life would be.

  23. Don't LDS go into temples, put on aprons made by men that resemble the fig leaves, and do works they believe are required to enter into Celestial heaven and be a god?

    Sounds familiar, just like Adam and Eve…even though you don't think the temple work is for the actual covering of your sin, you let Jesus come in like a janitor and clean up your messes, but that is all you need him for. Mormonism teaches you MUST do your own works in the temple to go to Celestial heaven.

  24. Another mind boggling belief is Mormonism teaches that what Satan told Eve was TRUE and they believe HIM! Satan, whom the Bible tells us is the father of all lies, tells the truth and is believed in Mormonism. They bought that you could actually become a god with enough knowledge, when it was merely Satan playing on human pride, arrogance, and ambition to get Eve to sin. And LDS feed right into the lie and keep it going! Satan doesn't have to come up with any new tricks when the old ones work so well! It takes your focus off Jesus and his sufficient sacrifice, just work, work, work and you can become a GOD!

    It takes a lot of pride and ambition to strive for that…it's the same spirit that was alive and well in Joseph Smith. Envy and selfish ambition, and it is not from above, as James so eloquently explains in his letter found in the Bible. There is another who had the same ambition, and it has landed him in a whole mess of trouble so I don't think I'd want to follow in his footsteps…

  25. @Leah, you misunderstood what I said. I said "perfect state." We lived in a perfect state with our Father and Jesus Christ, but They were the only perfect ones. We needed earth to start on the pathway to perfection. Only through trials and tribulation can we overcome sin through the Blood of Jesus Christ and begin the process of becoming perfect.

    "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)

    "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen 3:22)

    This scripture teaches us that we were not like God before and by knowing good and evil we became like God, thus starting our progression to learn what He has learned.

    The argument of the skins covering sins is your own opinion. Here is My opinion: God taught Adam about sacrifice and its similitude to the Savior Jesus Christ:

    "And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.

    And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.

    And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth." (Moses 5:5-7)

    Now on to your claim of us listening to satan's lies, I will copy the same scripture from before:

    "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. . ." (Gen 3:22)

    so Leah, if satan is lying in that regard then God himself is lying in that regard, because He clearly says that Adam and eve had become like Him, knowing good and evil.

    Now on to your misunderstanding of the temple:

    There are no "works" in the temple. In the temple one accepts the name of Jesus Christ and covenants or promises to follow his example. Yes we believe that you must do as Jesus did on this earth to return to live with Him in the celestial kingdom, but that belief should be shared by all, for it is very clear that one cannot be saved by simply believing in Jesus Christ we must follow Him.

    "If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour." (John 12:26)

    If that scripture is not enough for you, you can find the 30 or so references in the new testament to Jesus teaching His disciples to follow Him.

  26. "It takes your focus off Jesus and his sufficient sacrifice, just work, work, work and you can become a GOD!"

    Not so at all, our focus is completely on Jesus Christ:

    "And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent." (Mosiah 3:17)

    "But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ." (Mosiah 3:12)

    "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20)

    James 2:26

    "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26)

    "Therefore, prepare ye the way of the Lord, for the time is at hand that all men shall reap a reward of their works, according to that which they have been—if they have been righteous they shall reap the salvation of their souls, according to the power and deliverance of Jesus Christ; and if they have been evil they shall reap the damnation of their souls, according to the power and captivation of the devil." (Alma 9:28)

    I would hope that you don't need me to include anymore scriptures to show you the clear message that we teach about Jesus Christ.

    I will also post a comment I made elsewhere on this site for your edification:

  27. "It takes your focus off Jesus and his sufficient sacrifice, just work, work, work and you can become a GOD! "

    Our belief is in Eternal progression, and as we are the children of our Father, at one point we will have children and our children will have children. The family is an eternal institution. As we have children here on earth and we strive to give them all the knowledge, joy, and happiness we can, so God has had children and desires that we, His children, receive all the knowledge, joy, and happiness He has obtained. God did not create this world for us to simply worship Him or for us to be specimen in a petrie dish. He created this world for us to learn about ourselves and to put away sin and follow the example of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, so that we may learn the good from the evil and experience the joy of being joint heirs with Christ.

    “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Romans 8:16-17)

  28. Do you have to partake of the New and Everlasting Covenant, which is only available through Mormon temples by Mormons, to live in Celestial heaven with God?

    Don't be duplicitous. The answer is yes. You also must do the Endowment. They ARE works and are required for the highest level of salvation in Mormonism. It is not determined by a belief in Jesus' shed blood alone. Thus, your own works are required! Don't argue semantics, be straight forward. There is also a long laundry list of other works you must do to live with God the Father in Mormonism, including paying a full 10% tithe to even ENTER the temple, so don't play the "accepting Jesus" game in the temple with me. I come from a long line of Mormons and have heard it all and have learned all the word games.

    "Yes we believe that you must do as Jesus did on this earth to return to live with Him in the celestial kingdom"

    So Jesus was sealed to a wife in the Mormon temple? Hmmm…where is the historical evidence of this? Please.

  29. All the bible verses you post are taken out of context. In the Romans verse, Paul was speaking to believers! People who had already accepted Jesus as Savior. Here is the few verses before and after to clarify: "13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but YE HAVE RECEIVED the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The SPIRIT ITSELF beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (emphasis mine).

    These people had received the right by the Spirit to become sons of God! It even says ADOPTED by the Spirit! Not "you already were children of God in heaven before you came to earth."

    John 1:12 also states "Yet to all who received him, to THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN HIS NAME, he gave the RIGHT to BECOME children of God" (emphasis mine)

    Nice try, but fail. Please read your Bible in context, anyone can cherry pick a verse to back up their distorted beliefs. I always recommend reading at least 2 verses before the one you are reading, as well as at least 2 after, it will help you understand the meaning in context.

    As for your BOM verses, they are a fraud and worthless to me.

  30. I understand that Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in the pre-mortal existence, and I understand that you don't believe Jesus Christ was ordained before the world was created to become our Savior. I also understand that you feel Adam falling destroyed the plans of God.

    Leah I respect your right to believe these things. But, as you have come to this website to join in discussions about what Mormons believe, I would think it appropriate for you to retain an open mind and ponder on the possibility of these things being true. Why couldn't we have lived with God before this life? Why couldn't God have called a prophet of God in Joseph Smith?

    "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." (Amos 3:7)

    Why can't Mormons be right about the Adam and Eve story? Why can't God speak to his children today?

    You and all others who read this must know that it makes complete sense that before the second coming of Christ He would organize His one true church on the earth. Whether you believe Mormonism or not, you have to agree that at one point we will all seee things the same way. So the question is: Is Christ's one true church on the earth today, and if it is which one is it? For God is not the author of the millions of denominations on the earth today; man is.

    "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." (James 1:5)

  31. Well Leah as you said it:

    "As for your BOM verses, they are a fraud and worthless to me."

    That sums up everything we are talking about. Unless you are willing to believe that the book of Mormon could be true, you will never understand what it is I believe, nor will you believe how simple and plain it is.

    That is all I can say, without allowing the word to take place, and seeing the fruits it brings, you will never understand what I believe.

    This was very informative to see what you believe, but when you start taking an aimed attack directly at our doctrine, which you know nothing of, you are only wasting time. I know what I believe, and I know God is the one who has confirmed those beliefs. I realize that you may feel that God confirmed your beliefs as well, and that is just fine. Let us both continue forward feasting upon the words of Christ so that we may return to Him for eternity.

  32. As for James, yes, faith without works is dead. What comes first? Faith. A real true faith will change a mans' heart and he will have works that follow. It does not say "faith + works are required for you to live with God." And what are the works James is speaking of? He tells you: to look after the widows and orphans, that is true religion to God. It falls under loving your neighbor as yourself. When Jesus was asked what was the "works" of God, he answered "to believe on the one He sent." FAITH and LOVE are the works required. Context, context, context.

    I cannot have an "open mind" to people distorting scripture. You want to believe in JS and what he has told you, fine, but don't pass it off as the word of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

    What about all the Mormon denominations? The FLDS, the RLDS…in fact the Community of Christ is headed by Smith's own blood line whom he prophesied would run the church after him. What about them? They adhere more religiously to JS's teachings than you Brighamites…maybe you picked the wrong denom too. Are the HUNDREDS, yes, HUNDREDS of LDS offshoots the work of God or men also? They all follow Joseph Smith and read the Book of Mormon too. Please, these arguments are soooo tired…

    Why can't JS be a prophet? He could have been, but then he lied, deceived, and went after his own desires of women, power, and money. So he failed. He was a treasure hunter who used magic stones and was convicted of fraud, he had at least 33 wives that he lied about, threw over a printing press that was going to expose his polygamy-which led to his arrest for tyranny, shot 3 men and killed 2 in the gun fight at Carthage that the church now lies about, and carried a Jupiter Talisman with him at all times which was found in his pocket after his death. Sorry, he doesn't fit the bill for a true prophet.

    I think I may start my own blog titled "the ridiculous questions all Mormons ask Christians that have been framed by their indoctrination and make absolutely no sense." Has a nice ring to it.

  33. Well Leah, I'm sorry to hear your true feelings on the matter. I can only share with you my true feelings that Joseph Smith received a vistation from God the Father and His son Jesus Christ. He was called as a Prophet and was a Prophet of God in death. The Book of Mormon is the word of God. There is a Prophet of God on the earth today. I know these things to be true by the revelations I have received from God. I pray that you can come to know the simple truths which I know, and I know you can. You just have to open your heart to the Spirit of God.

    May God be with you Leah.

  34. All you have is a testimony with nothing to back it up. You have been deceived by your feelings. You do not "know" anything. You have had things revealed to you through experiences and feelings, but where did they come from? There are spirits out there that can show us things, the Bible tells us there are, and we are to test them against the Word of God. Paul warned of different gospels, and even if an angel of light preaches to you anything other than the gospel preached by Jesus, Paul and the other apostles, he is a deceiver. But then JS is visited by exactly that, an angel of light preaching another gospel, and he says it was from God and you believe him. Huh? (and that depends on the version of the first vision you accept, there are 9, and they were not recorded by a 14 year old boy.)

    I was kept in the dark about Mormonism until I was in my 30's, and it angers me to see others being deceived. I have not hidden the fact that I am against Mormonism 100%, I have made that clear, and do whatever I can to share what the Bible says and true church history that is buried from its' members in it's propaganda films depicting half truths and a whitewashed version of JS and church history. I have nothing against Mormons themselves, I love my mom and other family members who are still practicing Mormons, which is why I am so passionate about speaking the truth of Joseph Smith, the one that ISN'T taught in church. The LDS deserve to know the truth so they can make informed decisions about their faith that isn't based only in feelings. I pray you open your eyes, research the facts on JS and your church, and see the truth.

  35. One last thing to clear this up:

    "I understand that Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the pre-mortal existence, and I understand that you don’t believe Jesus Christ was ordained before the world was created to become our Savior."

    I am NOT a Jehovah's Witness. Don't know where you got that impression, but definitely NOT one of them. I am a follower of Jesus Christ who is my Lord and my God. I am not a member of any physical church nor do I claim a denomination. I have rebelled against organized religion somewhat after being burned by the claims of Mormonism of having to belong to a certain "church." I am a part of the body of Christ, a body of believers. His church. Remember Jesus had no physical church he "organized."

  36. Well my mistake there is another Leah that posted on this website as a JW.

    All I can say is that I know what I know and you cannot in any way convince me otherwise. Your logic is so focused on a Bible that has been translated so many times. Your argumens are tired and predictable and the same that every anti-mormon tries. You can try all you want to have our, "eyes opened," but it is you who has your eyes closed. You would not believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints to be true if Christ Himself stood before you and told you it was true. Why, because you are as the pharisees who doubted before practicing faith. I pray that you will know Jesus when He comes again, not by flesh and blood or facts, but by the spirit of God.

    "He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

    And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." (Matt 16:15-17)

  37. Pharisees? Really? You mean the Pharisees that were wrapped up in their religion, works, traditions, and laws? The Pharisees who believed you had to follow all the laws and do temple rites to be saved? The Pharisees who were clean, whited, and did all the right things religiously on the outside, but on the inside were full of dead men's bones?

    Hmmm…that sounds a little more like the LDS religion to me, but ok Brian. I already told you I am a follower of Jesus, who are you to say I don't know Him? Have you appointed yourself God and judge already? Slow down buddy, you gotta wait for your own planet of people to judge, this one is already taken and my God will judge my heart.

  38. Pharisees? Yes the pharisees because they were too stupid to see the miracles Jesus performed. They were set in their scripture and didn't believe the Messiah was among them working mighty miracles. Just as the Savior Jesus Christ is working miracles today and people can't see it because they are blinded just like they were back then, supposing He worked by the spirit of a devil rather than the Spirit of His Father who sent Him.

    Well Leah, continue in which ever way you feel is right and I will do the same. I know Jesus Christ and He knows me. I didn't say you don't know Him, so don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying you don't see His hand in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and you'll never see it, because you are closed to the possibility. And when that possibility becomes reality you will not recognize His works.

  39. YES! And there it is, the true heart of Brian, finally out! Where's the Mormon love and well wishes now?

    As soon as you figure out you can't brainwash a person into your beliefs, the dead men's bones come out of the whited sepulchers.

  40. My love and well wishes are always here. I don't understand your excitement. I am simply saying that you have closed yourself to the possibility that Jesus Christ is truly behind the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and you will never see it as I see it. This is the stance I have held this entire argument. If anyone has shown their true heart it is you. You've madea claim saying you are 100% against the Mormons and other very solid opposing statements.

    So who's stance is more heartless Leah? Your's or mine? I have said you will never see Jesus Christ's hand in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You have said that you are 100% against the Mormons, and you have said we are dead to the Savior Jesus Christ's teachings. You have openly mocked my beliefs and the sacred truths I hold dear.

    So my question Leah, Who is in for a ruder awakening if their stance is proven incorrect?

    If Mormonism is false, then I have wasted my life pursuing too much and working too hard. And I will be judged for wrongly interpreting Jesus's word and working too hard to glorify His name.

    If you are wrong, you have openly mocked Jesus Christ's modern-day church and one of His disciples. You have mocked a Prophet of God and said we are all lead by our vanity and pride. You have mocked Christ's simple and true doctrine.

    If you are wrong Leah, you have some strong words to account to your Savior about.

  41. "You've made a claim saying you are 100% against the Mormons and other very solid opposing statements."

    BOLD FACED LIE. My statement was I am 100% against Mormonism. MORMONISM! Which is a religion. I said my own mom is Mormon so I am NOT against Mormons. Here we go again, someone else who can only stand in an argument by twisting my words and taking them out of context. You sound like an anti-Christian, you're not anti-Christian are you?

    "You have mocked Christ’s simple and true doctrine."

    BOLD FACED LIE. I have NEVER mocked Jesus. You are grabbing at straws now.

    "If you are wrong, you have openly mocked Jesus Christ’s modern-day church and one of His disciples"

    Well according to Mormonism I'd still go to the Terrestrial Kingdom and live with Jesus. Sounds glorious! Or at worst, the Tellestial, which a person doesn't even have to accept Jesus to get too, and JS said himself that men would kill themselves to go there if they saw it's glory. So not too bad either…

  42. I should have known you would pull little things out like that. I was intending to say 100% against Mormonism. I know you aren't against people, just beliefs.

    And I am saying if I am right then, "you have mocked Christ’s simple and true doctrine.” Lets be honest, If the Church of Jesus Christ is true you have done just that. If it is not true, then you have not.

    Terrestial and Telestial does sound glorious doesn't it, but agin if we are right, you would never be in the presence of God or Jesus Christ, so I'm pretty sure that would feel like hell.

    Why do you have so much outright hate towards minor things. Oh yeah, I forgot, that is what this is all about. Let's continue to find small little quirky reasons that this can't be true while all the time denying that feelings can come from God. Sure, if you've never felt it you can say it is the wrong spirit. But when you have felt both you know what is the Spirit of God and what is of the devil.

  43. Utterly left speachless that you would say:

    "Here we go again, someone else who can only stand in an argument by twisting my words and taking them out of context. You sound like an anti-Christian, you’re not anti-Christian are you?"

    That is so openly and obviously what you are doing to me. I have not twisted anything you have written, I continually have to re-post to clarify that you have twisted my words.

  44. Me: "I am 100% against Mormonism."

    Brian: "you have stated that you are 100% against THE MORMONS"

    Brian: "I have not twisted anything you have written"

    Seems you are in a bit of a pickle, cause I'd call that a sure twist. And without any apologies either! So much for humility…

    "… if we are right, you would never be in the presence of God or Jesus Christ, so I’m pretty sure that would feel like hell."

    So if I don't believe in the LDS church, I am going to hell? Funny, I didn't know you guys believed in hell…I was taught it was outer darkness? Anyhoo, I am looking through my bible and I can't find that anywhere…says I have to accept JESUS, not a church or religion…and check mark! I accept Jesus. So don't worry, I am absolutely sure of my eternal destination.

    "Why do you have so much outright hate…"

    I don't have any "hate." When someone twists my words to make what I said completely different than what I truly said, I don't find that to be "minor" and I wanted it addressed.

    "But when you have felt both you know what is the Spirit of God and what is of the devil."

    So you have experienced both and you are the authority on both? So only the Mormons have the real feelings needed to discern truth from error? All the Christians, Muslims, and everyone else does not have the superior experiences you have, nor were they as lucky to be born into white families in North America where the only truth is. Never underestimate delusion.

  45. Wow again you twist my words, I have not twisted yours. Don't know how you can't see that I have clearly explained everything i have said and cintinually must elaborate for you because you cannot understand my plainess of speech.

    You spoke of the terrestial and telestial kingdom:

    "Terrestial and Telestial does sound glorious doesn’t it, but agin if we are right, you would never be in the presence of God or Jesus Christ, so I’m pretty sure that would feel like hell."

    This is in response to you saying you would end up in the terrestial or at worst the telestial to which i responded with such. Key word is "feel" in the phrase feel like hell. This is my attempt to come to a term you have an understanding of (as most christians believe in hell) and to say it would feel that way because an individual who could not enter the presence of God would then feel like they were in a state of mental hell because they are damned and cannot progress. Damned meaning they have a damn placed in their way to which they may not pass.

    Again I have not clearly twisted anything you have written you are twisting my words and interpreting them how you wish. I already explained my self and it is clear what was truly intended by my words.

    You are simply trying to turn my words so they favor your point of view. We have both clearly expressed ourselves, although you seem still to not understand my words, but let us finally leave it at that.

    You believe in Jesus Christ as do I, we both are living Christlike lives and that is good. When the time comes when Jesus returns we will all on the earth be united in one faith and with one doctrine.

    "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Ephesians 4:5)

  46. Leah said, "So you have experienced both and you are the authority on both? So only the Mormons have the real feelings needed to discern truth from error? All the Christians, Muslims, and everyone else does not have the superior experiences you have, nor were they as lucky to be born into white families in North America where the only truth is. Never underestimate delusion."

    I remember back in the 1980s, that is how long I have been talking to Mormons, asking Mormon missionaries why blacks were not allowed into the priesthood and them telling me that their church had a devine revelation in the 1970s that it was time to let blacks into the priesthood.

    Amazing that all of a sudden they received a revelation that contradicts what the most correct book on earth said below that shows in its teachings that it is clearly better to be light skinned than it is to be dark skinned.

    1 Nephi 12:23

    23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.

    1 Nephi 13:15

    15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

    One could look at the first passage above and conclude that it is talking about the darkness of someone's soul but the second passage puts the first one in context that the BOM was saying it is better to be a white person.

    I remember a Mormon saying that they post at sites like this one to do damage control but do any Mormons wonder why they constantly have to explain contradictions in church teachings and even in the various Mormon scriptures?

    As a Christian I can't remember ever doing much, if any, so called damage control over my beliefs or what the Bible teaches. Sure we get people who don't believe what the Bible says and some who try to claim a lot has been lost in translations over the centuries, mostly from non believers and, ironically also from Mormons who say the Bible is the word of God as far as it has been translated correctly but even Mormons are not that critical of the Bible's reliablity.

    Could it be that Mormons are often doing damage control is because what the LDS church teaches is not the truth?

  47. “So you have experienced both and you are the authority on both? So only the Mormons have the real feelings needed to discern truth from error? All the Christians, Muslims, and everyone else does not have the superior experiences you have, nor were they as lucky to be born into white families in North America where the only truth is. Never underestimate delusion.”

    "Could it be that Mormons are often doing damage control is because what the LDS church teaches is not the truth?"

    It is easy to see that one who does not understand, nor has been blessed in the way Mormons believe they have been blessed, would grasp the true nature of things as they really are.

    Allow me to explain; what are the churche's claims?:

    1. Joseph Smith saw God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ

    2. Joseph Smith was called a s a Prophet and was given the authority to act in the name of God(priesthood) by heavenly messangers Peter, James, and John.

    3. Addditional scripture was brought forth by the power of God

    4. Modern-day Prophets spread Jesus Christ's teachings today

    5. Houses of the Lord (Temples) scatter the world (currently 136 opperating on 6 continents)

    Now step back, look at this small list, and tell me if there is another church anywhere in the world that can claim such extraordinary things and still have over 14 million members (throughout the world, not just white people, thank you)

    Kent and Leah, You absolutely have to acknowledge that if such claims were true, you would be a Mormon. There are no if's and's or butt's about it. If it were true you would be bound by your believe and faith in Christ to follow His Church.

    You call it damage control; I call it clarification.

    You may say that Satan's power is abounding throughout the world; I would say Jesus Christ's power is shedding forth in every land and millions are taking upon themselves His name and doing His works.

    It is a simple difference in views; where I say you have some of the truth but not all, you say I have satan's lies and none of Christ's truth.

    I'm ok with that, because I trust in Jesus Christ and I feel His love daily.

    "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

    He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

    (Matt 13:38-39)

    I have given up my worldy life and I strive to live by Christ's example and no man shall have power to break my personal relationship with Christ. I seal my words with the words of a Prophet, "Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear." (Moroni 8:16)

  48. "It is a simple difference in views; where I say you have some of the truth but not all, you say I have satan's lies and none of Christ's truth"

    Actually, your founders and leaders have said, and the whole basis for JS needing to start the religion of Mormonism, was that all Christian churches were an abomination to God, from the devil, a "perfect pack of nonsense," all apostate and were corrupt. I have quotes if you need them, but if you have educated yourself at all on your church history it shouldn't be necessary.

    "Now step back, look at this small list, and tell me if there is another church anywhere in the world that can claim such extraordinary things and still have over 14 million members (throughout the world, not just white people, thank you)"

    That number could be over inflated and sketchy statistics at best, it is estimated that only about half of those are active and that the Mormon church counts members as active even if they don't attend. Some have trouble getting their names removed and some don't even bother. It took me several tries to have my name removed, they don't like to let you go very easily. Bad for their statistics.

    Also with the information readily available on the internet now, the numbers of those leaving the church are growing. John Dehlin, a Mormon who operates mormonstories.org did a study showing the reasons Mormons are leaving the church. Reason 1. They lose faith in Joseph Smith. (sad they had faith in him at all) 2. They research church history. His findings at the link below, and its by an active Mormon so its not "anti". He gives you all his Mormon credentials that are so important to you guys and actually gives advice on how to stop all the people leaving your church. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs

    It's beautiful when people seek for the truth.

    "Kent and Leah, You absolutely have to acknowledge that if such claims were true, you would be a Mormon. There are no if’s and’s or butt’s about it. If it were true you would be bound by your believe and faith in Christ to follow His Church."

    You're right, I would be. And that's why I am NOT Mormon anymore. The claims are false. And it means nothing to me what they claim or how proud you are of all your temples. Your reasons 1 & 2 start off with "Joseph Smith." Your whole belief system is based on Joseph Smith and HIS claims, without him your whole church falls apart. Members look into the real life of Joseph Smith and learn all the things the church hides from them, and their faith crumbles! What if your prophet was caught in an affair? Or drug abuse? You would be shaken to your core! My faith is in Jesus, who had no failures, so my beliefs will never be shaken. It is not based in men who will always fail.

    Let me leave you with a quote from Boyd K. Packer:

    ""The spiritual part of us and the emotional part of us are so closely linked that is possible to mistake an emotional impulse for something spiritual. We occasionally find people who receive what they assume to be spiritual promptings from God, when those promptings are either centered in the emotions or are from the adversary"

    Too bad Mormons NEVER apply this to themselves. It's only for the other guys…

  49. “”The spiritual part of us and the emotional part of us are so closely linked that is possible to mistake an emotional impulse for something spiritual. We occasionally find people who receive what they assume to be spiritual promptings from God, when those promptings are either centered in the emotions or are from the adversary”

    So when my friendly neighborhood Mormon missionaries visit and they tell me I should read the Book of Mormon and pray about whether it is true and I get a warm feeling after, perhaps that warm feeling is centered on emotions or it is from the adversary.

  50. Doctrine and Covenants 89:5-7,

    5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

    6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

    7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

    So Joseph Smith got a revelation from God and he wasn't bound by it? A Mormon explained to me about the fact that Smith drank wine the day before he died, drank beer and wine in his lifetime, but that the Word of Wisdom was not in effect yet.

    Smith also had a bar with alchohol in it in his own house. This and the fact that he drank alchohol durning his lifetime is documented in his own journal.

    Ironic that Smith nowadays woudn't even get a temple recommend so we are supposed to need his permission to enter the mansions where God is when, according to Mormon standards, he shouldn't be there himself?

    The following link is from a Mormon who is explaining why some people leave the church and it is about how to understand where ex Mormons are coming from and how to possible get them back in the fold and it gives information that what I mentioned above in this post is true.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs&fe

    Joshua explained to me that the man who made this video could be a Mormon, when I posted this video before, who might be doubting his faith but the man in the video says nothing about doubting his faith but why others do so and leave the church.

    But people should examine the information that is given and based their views on the facts.

  51. That is the same video I posted Kent, his name is John Dehlin and he is an active believing Mormon. He is just one of the ones who knows ALL the history and truth and hasn't turned his back on the faith, and he tries to get others to open their eyes. His website is mormonstories.org and he operates a blog called Stay LDS to help those with a crisis of faith to stay Mormon. He has taken off the blinders but stays Mormon. I have respect for him because he has made an educated, informed decision about his faith…I don't agree, but it is his choice now that he knows the truth! I just don't like it when Mormons aren't told the truth so their decision is not based in truth, but in deception.

  52. "What if your prophet was caught in an affair? Or drug abuse? You would be shaken to your core! My faith is in Jesus, who had no failures, so my beliefs will never be shaken. It is not based in men who will always fail."

    Not so, I think you have a false perception that we think Joseph Smith, or any prophet, is required to be perfect. Man is man and will always be imperfect. Christ is the only person to have lived on earth in perfection and He is the center of all my beliefs. My faith is as yours, and so my beliefs will never be shaken. I have read the stories, and I know the history of the church, and I too like John Dehlin have made an educated decision with all the information laid before me.

    "Ironic that Smith nowadays woudn’t even get a temple recommend so we are supposed to need his permission to enter the mansions where God is when, according to Mormon standards, he shouldn’t be there himself?"

    No man or woman entering the temple needs permission from a man. You can easily lie in an interview and say whatever you wish. These requirements are not man made and are intended to be between an individual and God. Esentially, you determine your own worthiness by how you feel you have lived according to the commandments of God.

    "Your whole belief system is based on Joseph Smith and HIS claims, without him your whole church falls apart"

    You are absolutely correct! One has to know for themselves that Joseph Smith did see God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. One has to gain that knowledge for themselves from God.

    "His website is mormonstories.org and he operates a blog called Stay LDS to help those with a crisis of faith to stay Mormon"

    Here is the reasoning behind his work:

    "And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

    And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

    Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

    And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

    And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

    But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

    Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

    He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

    (Matt 13:3-11)

    Sadly, some do not find the good ground and therefore lose their beliefs. Those of us who know for ourselves what the Spirit of God feels like desire to share that with others. I can never apologize for my efforts or for the things I have said and will say in sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world. I know that I have personally received answers to my prayers from God the Father Himself and I cannot deny it.

    Ponder for a moment with me. . . If you felt you had received direct revelation from God, would you not strive with every energy of your soul to share that?

    “The spiritual part of us and the emotional part of us are so closely linked that is possible to mistake an emotional impulse for something spiritual. We occasionally find people who receive what they assume to be spiritual promptings from God, when those promptings are either centered in the emotions or are from the adversary”

    Let me tell you that I have felt this many times. I know the power of the adversary, and I know Christ's power. I also know what pure emotion is, when I sit with an alcoholic and cry with him over his affliction.

    It is impossible for me to explain to you what the difference in these feelings is. It is just as hard as explaining to someone how salt tastes if they have never tasted it.

    Regardless of anyone's efforts, I will boldly share what I know to be true wherever I go in this world.

    "No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done."

    (Joseph Smith)

  53. "…What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers." (History of the Church, vol 6, p. 411)

    Joseph Smith made this statement preaching from the stand to the Latter-day Saints in Nauvoo on Sunday May 26, 1844. At the time he had secretly taken at over 25 plural wives. Why would a prophet of God lie about such things? These are not "stories" they are facts recorded in history. How do you reconcile his dishonesty and deceit to him being a truthful prophet of God? Just curious…again if you know all of this about him and still choose to call him credible, that's your choice, but I would like to understand LDS rationale on this.

  54. And why doesn't the church depict the truth in their films? I watched the film put out by the church on Joseph Smith, and it was pure propaganda, half truths, and lies of omission. There is no mention of his other wives, the destruction of the printing press, the reason he was tarred and feathered (adulteries), the fact that he drank wine in the jail and had a gun and shot and killed 2 men! NONE of that is in there! Why? Why is your church duplicitous about its history? Lying by omission is the same as hiding things. It puts out this white washed, scrubbed clean version of JS and church history, and then wonder why Mormons leave the church when they get a library card or figure out how to use Google on the internet machine. Why not tell the truth? How can you find such an organization as credible?

  55. Leah,

    The parable of the sower (Matt 13:3-11) teaches us a very important doctrine from Christ. In order to minimize the number of seeds that fall by the wayside and do not take root, the Church focuses on the most spiritual aspects of the story, for if a seed takes root then it has the oppurtunity to grow and multiply.

    The church does not include "facts" that have conflicting affidavits and proof, for example, there is no evidence that two men died from the 3 shots Joseph fired (he had a 6 shot pistol and 3 misfired)

    most accounts however agree that three men were definitely injured, and the general consensus is that one was hit in the arm one in the leg and one in the face. Many adulteress claims were brought against the Prophet, but the tarring and feathering was in response to the saints' polotical power in the region.

  56. "How can you find such an organization as credible?"

    Again if you had the feelings that I have received you would feel as I feel. You would know that the church is not judged on the imperfections of man, but on its Christ centered teachings. Joseph Smith would tell you himself that he was not perfect and he may wish he did some things differently, but everything he did was an attempt to glorify Jesus Christ and do His will and follow His commandments.

    I believe that, with all my heart, and I will die a man filled with the joy and pleasure of serving Jesus Christ.

  57. Where in the parable of the sower does it suggest you tell half truths and omit things just so the person buys into what you are selling them? They do know for a fact that he had a gun and shot back, but they sell the story that he "went like a lamb to the slaughter" and had NO gun. We do know for a fact he had plural wives and lied about it in public. Why is that not told? Maybe you can justify "lying for the Lord" but the Bible tells the whole story, mens faults and sins and all, and people still come to know Jesus without the lies and deception through it. You have twisted the parable to mean something it does not.

    If your church has to cover things up so people will hold fast to their faith in it, there are MAJOR problems with your beliefs. But as I can see, you can justify just about anything if you want to believe something bad enough. Even convincing yourself your "experiences" came from God, who does not lie or suggest you ever should for ANY reason.

  58. When your feelings and experiences completely override truth and fact, you enter into a dangerous realm my friend. Jesus always said "I tell you the truth" not "I will tell you part of the truth so I can indoctrinate you and then pray you never search the internet or find out the whole story!" I cannot believe you would condone propaganda just to win converts. If the ends justify the means huh? Sad, that is not from Jesus.

    You still haven't explained why JS needed to lie about his wives? Did your God tell him to lie? Is it justified if people buy into Mormonism because of it? This blows me away…hey at least you were honest.

    I'd like to reiterate again that the Bible tells the whole sordid story with all the prophets/kings/mens sins and failings, it does not side step or lie to get people to believe it.

  59. It is not my fault or the churche's fault for you feeling the way you do. You chose with your "facts" to leave. Christ has never apologized for the boldness of his teachings and I, His disciple, will not apologize for His teachings either.

    Men and women will make their own decisions based on what they feel is true, what they feel is fact, and what they feel is right. Our doctrine can be largely misunderstood, but it is the doctrine of Jesus Christ and therefore we cannot apologize for His teachings.

    Call it lies, call it blasphemy, call it whatever you wish it to be, but to my grave I will stand by what I know to be true and some "bitter ex-mormon" can spat and slander all they want, but in the end it matterth not.

    Your words are none different than those spoken to every Prophet of God in every dispensation. There has always been strong opposition to the teachings of Jesus Christ and there always will be. I am saddened you made the decision you made, for I truly believe you have been deceived. I wish you the best in this life, contiinue to exercise your faith in Jesus Christ and one day I hope you will feel the Spirit of God as I feel it.

  60. While facts may be something you choose to ignore, you cannot choose whether they are true or not. Do you deny JS had at least 33 wives? It is an established FACT no matter if you put your fingers in your ears and say "lalala." Read "In Sacred Loneliness" by Todd Compton-an LDS Historian with well documented sources. He also denied his polygamy/polyandry publicly, there are public records that are dated proving this. It is a FACT that JS had a gun in Carthage and fired it. It is a FACT that JS ordered a printing press destroyed thus was arrested for tyranny, you can even view the actual order online! Take off the blinders, because you denying these facts as slander just make you look very uninformed and brainwashed and only help feed the view of the LDS church as a cult. Your not helping matters any.

    You also keep making assumptions and statements like I don't have the Spirit of God, or that I have never felt the Spirit as you have, or I would know what the Spirit was if I ever felt it.

    I have felt the Spirit, I have been knocked to my knees before from the power of it, even felt my heart on fire much like your "burning in the bosom," I have wept uncontrollably from spiritual experiences, I have felt the Spirit overtake me during worship, I have had an experience while in tremendous pain I cried out to God for it to stop and it did the moment I prayed. My life has been changed dramatically since accepting Jesus as my Savior and Lord, and others who know me have noticed the difference and change in me and in my life for the better. The Spirit has testified to me in so many ways that I could never dismiss it as just a feeling… I just don't use it as the measuring stick for my beliefs being true or not! I don't use my own subjective spiritual experiences to prove any "truths." The Bible speaks for itself. I know my feelings and experiences are from God because they don't contradict the truth of the Bible or of Jesus' teachings. I don't have to wear them on my sleeve as the "test" of the truth of something. And I certainly don't have to omit facts or hide things about Jesus to get people to believe in him.

    But sure Brian, only YOUR feelings are valid, only YOUR church is true, the Spirit only testifies to Mormons and YOU, YOUR experiences are superior to mine. And just because you speaketh in Kings English maketh no difference. Thanks for the laugh though, I love it when Mormons speak in old English to sound authoritative, good times! Did you know King's English wasn't even used in JS's time? He only used it to make his writings sound more authentic too. Silly.

  61. Well Leah the "facts" of the creation of the Universe clearly tell us that there was a Big Bang. There are no "facts" to the world being created by God. So which is it that you believe. It is no "fact" that Christ could turn water to wine and heal the sick and cast out devils. Disprove science and then I'll accept your "facts."

    You cannot "factually" prove science false, yet you still believe in the miracles of Jesus. You are no different than I. Mans records have always been and will always be imperfect. Ever heard the adage, "He who wins writes history?" Whereas I never contended Joseph didn't have a gun or that he didn't have wives there are many claims out there that simply cannot be proven as "fact" but can easily be proven as one man's "fact."

    In my copying of the parable of the sower I should have included some context, so here you go:

    "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

    And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

    For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

    (Matt 13:13-16)

    My prayer is that you may one day see what was right in front of you, and feel it with your heart.

    Sadly I know better, because once someone rejects the gospel of Jesus Christ they rarely return. Regardless, I can call upon the name of my Savior Jesus Christ in hopes that through His grace your eyes may be opened, that you may learn that there is more we need to do than to simply accept His sacrifice.

  62. "My life has been changed dramatically since accepting Jesus as my Savior and Lord"

    There's your problem Leah, if you had accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior long ago, you'd still be a Mormon.

    Well, I have to say this was fun even though neither of us will ever budge.

    You anti-mormons with your "facts"

    Us Mormons with our "feelings"

    I would however like to know what your doctrine is. What do you believe in?

    I really hope its not the fireman analogy where you are just an unconscious person lying on their bed waiting to be rescued by Jesus. I have always wondered about that analogy. . . what if you are really awake and have to get out of your bedroom before the fireman can save you. Does Jesus Christ really teach anywhere that you don't have to do anything to be saved escept "accept" Him.

    Actually don't tell me. . . I've grown weary of our tired and drawn out discussion. You will always make me an offender for a word and I will always tell you that the Spirit of God abounds in my daily life and you have no idea what you're missing.

    Underneath it all, I can actually feel the love God has for you. I know your intentions have always been what you feel to be right and I cannot dissuade you from continuing on that path. You're a good person, you believe what you believe and you are 100% behind that, many people cannot stand with their beliefs. Any God fearing individual is one I would love to have as a friend or as a co-worker. May Christ keep you in His infinite love until we all bow at His feet and worship Him.

    "Mormon love and well wishes"

  63. Alrighty, so a ways back I think it was Kent who stumped me with a question. I haven't read through all of the discussion between Brian, Kent, and Leah, so I'm coming back to this thread after an absence and I haven't caught up, but I did find an answer, finally. The question Kent put to me, which led to my questions to AskGramps.org, was:

    Hi Grampy, I run mormondna.org and I’ve been asked a question that’s got me stumped.

    It started with a guy saying the Fall wasn’t necessary, and if it weren’t for A&E eating the fruit we’d all be living happily in the
    Garden. He used the scripture that says "multiply and replenish the earth" as proof that this was possible in the Garden, otherwise God wouldn’t have commanded it. The response, of course, is that conflicting commandments allowed A&E to gain their agency. But why was agency necessary at this point? Why didn’t God just give A&E the fruit and say "Well, now it’s time to leave the Garden, be careful out there."? And that leads to the question what was the purpose of the Garden anyway? Why weren’t A&E placed directly into the lone and dreary world? I know I’m missing something, it just all seems a bit arbitrary, and I know the gospel is natural and not arbitrary when you understand it.

    It took a while, but I just got this response:

    Joshua,

    Well first of all, the fruit didn't give Adam and Eve their agency. They posessed it from the start. What the fruit gave them was a knowledge of Good and Evil. In other words it gave them a greater awareness of what their agency was for.

    Secondly, however, the main thrust of the question could be reduced to simply, why bother with the garden at all? Why didn't God just create the mortal imperfect world as we know it and put Adam and Eve on it as mortals and start there?

    The answer is this, he could not. God is a perfect being. Everything he does and says is perfect. To be less than perfect in any aspect would be to fall short of his own glory, and thus lose the very power and glory he posesses.

    God created the world in a perfect immortal condition. All life on it was immortal and perfect, including Adam and Eve. Again, this is because it was how God had to use his power. The only way mortal life, or life that falls short of perfection, could begin on earth was through the agency of man. Why is mortal life so important? Because a mortal body is required in order to create another mortal body. Again, God could not create an imperfect body, so he created two perfected bodies in Adam and Eve, and then let them use their agency to make themselves mortal, or less than perfect. This is why God established the Garden of Eden. This is why he gave the two conflicting commandments. This is also why one of the commandments was to multiply and replenish the earth. It was to explain to both Adam and Eve the importance of their choice.

    One thing I keep in mind about this whole process is a simple question; If there were a better way to begin this stage of our lives, don't you think God would have used it instead? I have to think he would. So, if this is the absolute best way he could have done this, then everything that happened with Adam and Eve happened because they HAD to occur as they did. Adam and Eve had to be placed in the garden. They had to be presented with conflicting commandments. As long as they remained worthy of living in the Garden, they could not procreate. So long as they persisted in the Garden, the Plan of Salvation was on hold because none of us would be able to join them on earth. It was only when the fruit was eaten that the Plan of Salvation could proceed through the procreation of mortal man.

    There is also a great amount of symbolism in the Garden of Eden story in that it represents the process we all voluntarily chose to participate in. Adam represents everyone born into this world as someone who deliberately chose to leave Heavenly Father's presence and begin the process of mortality. Adam leaving the garden is as we left Heaven to be born to our mortal parents. The same blessings and cursings that were given to Adam and Eve apply to us all to this day.

    Gramps

  64. You left out 1 important thing, why your theory doesn't make sense. God DOES NOT LIE, NOR DOES HE TEMP.
    Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

    James 1:13 3 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

  65. Joshua said:

    In LDS temples Mormons watch a video that tells the story of the creation of the earth and the Garden of Eden. In that story, most of which would be familiar to any Christian, God puts Adam and Eve in the Garden, and tells them they can eat any fruit of any of the trees except the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which we will hereafter refer to as the TKGE. Lucifer/Satan tempts Eve into partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, Eve gets Adam to eat it, and Adam and Eve are kicked out of the Garden (the Fall) into the world we live in today and they have kids, etc.

    Question, why does everyone say this, Christians also, when the Genesis and the book of Moses clearly say God put the man/Adam in the garden and told the man/Adam not to eat the tree, THEN he made the woman……also, it clearly say God then drove out the man, not the man and woman, not Adam and Eve,…….

    to say that the command was for both of them, no, read what i clearly said and read what the bible and book of Moses clearly says……

    Got eyes to see?? :-)

    • I went and read it…it reads like a lot of independent statements. Can we be sure they’re meant to be chronological?

      • Hi, independent statements? you mean me? or are you saying man changed the bible “and” the book of Moses?

        Chronological? where in the bible or the book of Moses does it say God told both Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree? where in the bible or the book of Moses does it say God drove out both the man and woman?

        I does not say that anywhere, nor could it, for then that would negate/nullify as an error what I asked you to read and you just read on about before they ate, yea? :-)

        • I’m asking whether we should assume that the verses in Genesis are meant to be read as a chronological history of events, or as independent statements in some cases. After all, in Genesis 1:27 it says that man and woman were both created, but then in Genesis 2:5 it says there was not a man till the earth.

          As for the fruit, just because the Bible doesn’t mention something does that mean it didn’t happen? The Bible itself says it doesn’t contain everything that Jesus did or taught, so it admits to bring an incomplete record.

          • Gen 1 everything was created, Gen 2 it clearly says “man was formed” out of the dust then “made” the woman…..things were created ahead of time, then put on earth…..yes???

            you commented on the bible but left out the book of moses, commented that the bible is incomplete, yet nothing on the book of moses….

            how about the LDS endowment video? it says the Lord “made” both Adam and Eve and put them into the garden, then told them both not to eat of the tree, but…..

            the book of Moses and Genesis clearly say that man was put in the garden, the Lord told the man not to eat of the tree, then the Lord made the woman……

            so then the LDS endowment video is error, but missionaries say LDS has new revelations all the time so the video is okay, but what the book of Moses if from J Smith straight from the golden plates and can’t be changed huh???? smile now :)

          • Is analyzing the language of the scriptures on this level productive? It seems this kind of analysis causes us to miss out on the main points and invent others which do not exist. If we are going to take every word literally at its face value then we must also believe that God made Adam twice since the scriptures say it two times.

            Regarding the temple video, I’ve never been taught to regard it as a literal representation of what happened in the garden of Eden. Maybe everything happened just as shown, maybe not. The important lessons are there, that’s what matters. Whether they are symbolic, metaphorical, or literal is of secondary importance to me.

  66. Did God also have to sin and take fruit form the tree of good and evil to have sex with his Sprit Wives?

  67. Isaiah 5:20: ”
    Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil; and put darkness for light, and light for darkness; and put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!”

  68. You have to stop assuming that Adam and Eve knew nothing, this is not true.

    The Innocent state of Adam
    and Eve theory

    Adam and eve were in a state of innocence, that they didn’t
    know anything how could they sin if they did not know right from wrong?

    This is a very erroneous view, as often times they will
    liken Adam and Eve to that of a newborn babe; not knowing anything. I agree
    that they were innocent, but to say they didn’t know anything? I’m going to go
    through the scriptures that say they did know things.

    From the beginning when man
    was created if Adam did not know anything, was he able to do the following?

    ·
    Genesis 2:15 “And the Lord God took
    the man, and put him into the Garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.”

    1.
    To dress
    and keep it.

    ·
    Genesis 2:19-20 “And out of the ground
    the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the
    air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and
    whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name
    thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and
    to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was
    not found an help meet for him.”

    1.
    Named
    every living creature.

    ·
    Genesis 2:23 “And Adam said,
    This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be
    called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”

    1.
    He knew
    what bones were.

    2.
    How could
    tell the difference between bone and flesh.

    3.
    He
    labelled this creature “Woman”.

    4.
    And
    knew she was taken out from him.

    ·
    Genesis 2:24-25 “Therefore shall a man leave his
    father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one
    flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his
    wife, and were not ashamed.”

    1.
    They knew
    about Marriage.

    2.
    Not
    ashamed to be naked.

    We also read a multitude of other things God has made
    mankind aware of in Genesis 1:28-30 from being fruitful, and multiply, and replenish
    the earth, to subdue it: and to have dominion over all other creation in and on
    the earth.

    So Adam and Eve were given a lot of knowledge before the
    “fall”, how can we possibly make a statement that they knew nothing, they were
    like newborn babies according to their knowledge.

    From
    examining the scriptures we learn that this is not the case. I am still typing out my study and will publish the rest on my Blog should anyone be interested in reading the rest.

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