Did Joseph Smith drink wine the day he died? If so, how can he go to Heaven?

As asked in a comment thread on this blog…

Q: “I find it interesting that the day before he was killed that Joseph Smith drank wine and don’t Mormons have to be temple worthy to worship in the temple and one of the things that make them temple worthy is that they can’t drink alcohollic beverages? So wouldn’t that make Smith not be able to enter the Celestial Kingdom when he passed from this earth if he wasn’t temple worthy at the time of his death?”

A: The simple answer is that drinking wine wasn’t considered a violation of the Word of Wisdom at the time of Joseph’s death. As stated at FAIRMormon.org:

The text of the Word of Wisdom forbids “strong drink” (D&C 89:5, 7), which was initially interpreted as distilled beverages (hard liquor). Beer, unfermented or lightly fermented wine, and cider were considered “mild drinks” (D&C 89:17) and therefore acceptable (note that verse 17 specifically permits “barley…for mild drinks”). The complete prohibition of alcoholic drinks of any kind only became part of the Word of Wisdom following the temperance movement of the late 19th and early 20th centuries; Presidents Joseph F. Smith and Heber J. Grant supported the movement and Grant made complete abstention from alcohol in any form a requirement for a temple recommend in the early 1920s.

Comments

  1. I am constantly surprised at the petty nature of some critics that seek to 'make a man an offender for a word."

    Could we ask correspondents to raise the level of debate?

  2. Ronnie, that is a fair question because if you went to your bishop for a temple recommendation and you told him you drank wine the day before wouldn't you be denied getting into the temple?

    One would think that the requirements for eternal life always have been the same and they include the temple ordinances.

    But really what we need to do for eternal life is to trust and believe completely in who Jesus Christ is and what He did on the cross to save us, sinners who can never save ourselves, by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day.

    Where saved is defined as eternal life where we get to be with God in His mansions after we leave this earth and saved doesn't just mean we get to live in the afterlife to have a chance if we are worthy enough someday to be there.

  3. "One would think that the requirements for eternal life always have been the same and they include the temple ordinances."

    The consumption of alcohol is not a sin. Not honoring commitments is. The Word of Wisdom that prohibits the consumption of alcohol by Mormons does not mean Mormons believe alcohol is bad. I'll buy a beer for a friend who isn't a Mormon, and I don't think he's doing anything wrong nor do I believe I'm doing anything wrong by buying him a beer. He's not under the same responsibility I am because he hasn't made the same commitments. The Word of Wisdom is a commandment given to a specific people at a specific time in history because of specific circumstances. It's not because the consumption of alcohol is inherently evil.

    Joseph Smith was not under the same commitment in his day that we Mormons are in our day, so he did nothing wrong, because he wasn't disobeying God or violating any commitment he had made to God.

  4. There us a basic principle that underscores the fact of being a Christian and that is that God requires obedience.

    I recall years ago a bishop refusing a TR for a sister that admitted to drinking the odd cup of coffee. She contended that God wouldn't keep her out of heaven for 'a few cups of coffee!'

    The bishop's response was that she was correct, but that he would keep her out for 'wilful disobedience.'

    When the principles of one's faith are understood and accepted on the basis of 'doing the will of [our] father in heaven,' then when we refuse to conform our lives to his will we are rebellious, and the Bible designates rebellion and disobedience as acts that self-exclude ourselves from heaven.

    "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

    Now, Kent, I quite understand that you might not accept the Word of Wisdom as a requirement of the Lord in living lives of holiness, but latter-day Saints do.

    As Joshua has intimated, when t he WOW was first given it was not considered as a commandment, but as sound advice for the well being of the Saints. Later, it was given the status of a commandment on the understanding that all faithful Latter-day Saints would willingly accept it as the will of God in their lives.

    Not all requirements set in place by Almighty God for the conduct of his people have remained the same from the beginning. This is particularly true of the dietary laws. What God determined was an appropriate diet for Adam and Eve is different from that he later delivered to Noah, and again different from that he gave in detail to Israel, and then again different from that he delivered to Christians through the apostle Peter.

    What we see through the successive revelation of God to mankind regarding an appropriate diet is God determining from time to time what he requires fro and from those that faithfully worship and serve him.

    The saints of God have always been under covenant to serve and obey him.

    As an Anglican, then a Methodist, before I became a Latter-day Saint, I sang along with the popular hymn,

    "Trust and obey,

    For there's no other way

    To be happy with Jesus

    Than to trust and obey."

    Ronnie

  5. Non-LDS Christians should get used to the plain fact that latter-day saints believe in Jesus every whit as strongly as they do. The Jesus of the Holy Bible is one that was in the pre-existence with God his Father, and who came to earth through Mary in the incarnation; that he was crucified, that he died, that he was resurrected, and that he ascended to heaven from where he will come top judge the quick and the dead.

    He, Jesus the Christ, is the Only Begotten of the Father; his Firstborn, and our Saviour, Lord, redeemer, and King, as well as our Advocate and Mediator with the Father in our behalf.

    By the redemption and perfect atonement he wrought by the shedding of his innocent blood he enables those that have faith in him as God's Son and Saviour to be righteous, cleansed from their sins and its effects through the principle of repentance, and enable the sons and daughters of God to stand clean again in his presence.

    All else is commentary, concerning which, no body of Christians en bloc have been able and are still not able to come to general across-the-board agreement.

    I acknowledge that you consider yourself saved in God's kingdom by your faith, and that you will concede that Latter-day Saints [Mormons] are just as saved as you are and for the same reasons, namely because of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and their willingness to serve and obey him.

    Ronnie

  6. Joshua:

    The problem is the Word of Wisdom is LDS scripture, you recognize it as being from God. Then was it God who later said you can't drink wine, or was it men?

    If it is just men telling you that, why are they contradicting God who said it was ok to drink wine?

    If it was God, why did he say first you can drink wine, but then said now you can't?

    It's an issue of who do you trust to obey when there are CONFLICTING orders? God does not change. And please don't come up with the "animal sacrifice" example again, it's weak. God never ordered the Jews to stop sacrificing animals after He commanded them to sacrifice animals. So it's not the same thing.

    • Let me reword your comment slightly to answer your own question.
      The problem with the Bible is that it is Christian scripture that you recognize as being from God. Then was it God that later said you could eat pig, or was it men?
      If it is just men telling you that, why are they contradicting God who said it was not ok to eat pig?
      If it was God, why did he say first you can drink wine, but then said now you can't?… I think that's enough. I really liked Ronnie's reply above (70 weeks ago). Also, I think it was pretty crazy of God to save Abraham from being sacrificed by his father and the Egyptian courts and then ask him to sacrifice his own son. Really, it was test of obedience. When God commands, we should obey and that's what it is all about, obedience and faithfulness to what we believe is right (as far as we understand what right is). To bad we don't have the same relationship with God that Abraham did.

  7. I must have missed the post that referred to God changing the requirement for his people to stop sacrificing animals. Could this be reposted so that I can check it out? If this reference is to my mention of the atonement of Jesus Christ, then you have taken offense at something that I did not argue. I did not mention the cessation of sacrifices as an example of God changing his mind, although, as pointed out, it does signify that God did change his mind. Calling that a weak argument when it wasn't made makes the critic sound desperate.

    Is it the case that this critic believes that the people of God should make animal sacrifices today? If so, some scriptural support from the Gospels would be welcome so that all may follow the critics line of reasoning and not be left wondering what the critic is talking about.

    In any case, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross at Golgotha DID do away with the need for the blood of animals to be sacrificed as types of the one great sacrifice – the 'once and for all' – offered by the Son of God as THE sacrifices of atonement to which all previous sacrificed anticipated.

    It is always better if critics do not try to anticipate what answers will come and make efforts to turn them aside, especially when they guess wrong.

    The critic's argument is facile and demonstrates complete lack of understanding of what is in the Bible.

    Why didn't the Law of Moses prohibit anger?

    Why did Jesus need to add do not get angry?

    Why didn't the Law of Moses prohibit divorce?

    Why did the Law of Moses consider some animals unclean and prohibit Israel to eat them, yet divine revelation to Peter permit their ingestion if God didn't change his mind?

    Why were the dietary laws continually changed from Adam and Eve, to Noah, to Moses, and to Christians, and how did God bring these discrete laws into effect wihtout changing his mind?

    According to this ill-informed critic, humanity should still be vegetarian and be under God's law to eat of everything that grows except the fruit of the tree of Good and Evil after the manner God dictated to Adam and Eve.

    According to the reasoning of the critic, God didn't alter the dietary lists at different times, and those passages of scripture that indicate unequivocally that he did are unauthorised additions to perfect scripture and should be excised.

    No doubt the critic believes there are other passages in the Bible where some contradiction seems evident, and we should, if we follow the critics reasoning, throw out all varying accounts of the same event, etc, except the correct one.

    Will the critic tell is which ones are to be retained and which ejected?

    It is sad when critics use fallacious arguments to attempt to bolster their weaknesses.

    Perhaps our critic will inform us where and when we can attend to see a Jewish congregation sacrifice a bullock to yhvh. That should prove interesting.

    Those that use childish arguments will always be falling over their own feet. When they do, their anger rises and they revert to ad hominem arguments and throw their puny darts against the person whilst being unable to address the argument.

    Other Christians have noted instances where God has apparently changed his unchangeable mind.

    There are many instances where the "never changing god" changes his mind. For instance, it states in Exodus that "no man may see god's face and live, but then Jacob wrestled with god, saw his face and was "spared"–which means the bible is contradictory, the "never changing" god changed his mind about killing Jacob because he saw his face.

    Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.” But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” Genesis 32:29-30

    "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." Exodus 32:30

    Genesis 6:5-7 (King James Version)

    5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

    2 Kings 20:1-6

    1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; FOR THOU SHALT DIE, AND NOT LIVE.

    2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying,

    3 I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

    4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,

    5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I WILL HEAL THEE on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.

    6And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

    God was ready to destroy the people of Israel because they had made an idol and Moses intervened requesting they be spared. (Deuteronomy 9:13-14, 19)

    Those that have reached a certain stage of spiritual maturity have learned better than to constantly ask God why he does this or that, for no better reason than that it does not seem sensible to us. "Shall the pot say to the potter 'Why hast thou made me thus?'"

    Those that question why God does anything have not reached the point where they hear him and obey. They are still at the little child stage where they have to ask "why?" to everything.

    God doesn't always explain why he does anything, but we can rest in the assurance that it is always for our benefit.

    Ecclesiastes Chapter 12:13. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

    The following is taken from an article by Anti-Mormon liar, Matt Slick. You must decide whether you agree with Slick Matt, the Bible, God, or whatever or whoever it is in which you place your faith in your eternal salvation.

    ===

    Exodus 32:14, "…the Lord changed His mind…"

    by Matt Slick

    "So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (Exodus 32:14, NASB).

    Different Bible's translate this verse differently. The NASB says, "the Lord changed His mind." The NIV and NKJV say "The Lord relented." The KJV, RSV, and the 1901 ASV say, "The Lord repented." The Hebrew word at issue here is for relent/repent is נָחַם (nacham). There are 108 occurrences in the Old Testament. The KJV translates it as "comfort" 57 times, "repent" 41 times, "comforter" nine times, and "ease" once. 1.

    The issue, of course, is whether or not God actually goes through a process of changing His mind due to learning something as the open theists would maintain.

    But, is God actually reacting to knew [sic] "Turn from Thy burning anger and change Thy mind about doing harm to Thy people. 13 'Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Thy servants to whom Thou didst swear by Thyself, and didst say to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever. 14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (Exodus 32:12-14, NASB).

    First of all, it is apparent that Moses disobeyed God's instruction to leave God alone (v. 10).

    Instead of Moses listening to God, he pleads with God to spare Israel and God relents. Why? What is the significance of God allowing Himself to be swayed by the interceding work of Moses on behalf of Israel?

    Why did God not ignore Moses' request and go ahead and destroy the nation?

    The answer is simple: because of Jesus. Jesus said in John 5:39, "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me."

    Jesus says that the Bible is about Him. Certainly, such an important figure of Moses must reflect Jesus in some way, and he does.

    As Moses interceded for his people, Jesus also intercedes for His.

    God listened to Moses, because God would listen to Jesus.

    —-

    Have a happy life.

  8. Another irony? Jesus Christ Himself drank wine and while Mormons will say it was just grapejuice, it was common during the time He walked this earth for Jews to have a glass of wine with their meals.

    So if Jesus Christ drank wine, would that have made Him not temple worthy?

    It sounds like a double standard, Jesus Christ was allowed to drink wine but today Jesus Garcia would not be allowed to do so and Joeseph Smith also was allowed to drink wine but if Joseph Jones went to his bishop to ask for a temple recommend and he told his bishop that he sometimes drinks wine he would be denied his recommend.

    Something as important as our eternal destiny shouldn't ever change and while I know some Mormons may think I am being disrespectful to their beleifs by even implying that Joseph Smith wasn't temple worthy that alone that Jesus Christ Himself wasn't either, but my point is that no one is worthy to ever be in the mansions where God is on their own merits by anything we do, except Jesus Christ Himself.

    So trust and believe only in who He is and what He did on the cross to save us, sinners who can never ever save ourselves and don't trust and believe in anything we do as really no one is worthy, even the bishops who decide if other Mormons are worthy or not as they aren't either, if they are truly honest with God and themselves.

    Ask yourselves the question that the jailer in Ephesus asked Paul and Silas in the Book of Acts in the Bible, "what must I do to be saved?"

    Sidenote: Mormons mean something different about what saved means so I am talking about saved meaning that we will for sure be in the mansions where God is not just that we get to live in the afterlife with a chance to be there. So I am talking about saved being eternal life.

    Acts 16:29-34

    29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “SIRS, WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?”

    31 So they said, “BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND YOU WILL BE SAVED, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

  9. I addressed my post to Joshua purposely and was speaking to him only in regards to a conversation we had.

  10. Of course I don't believe the words of wisdom and even the temple and its ordinances are needed as the work we are to do is believe in Jesus Christ.

    John 6:28-29

    28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    The passages below are the gospel I have been given that I pass on to other people. I hope people take the time to read them and take them to heart. Notice they don't say anything about keeping ordinances or us being worthy. It is all about Jesus and not about us but no, it doesn't give us a license to live sinful live styles as if people are doing so, that is evidence that they probably aren't true believers in Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    I know some Mormons will read those passages and think they already believe them so they may wonder why I am posting them but again, saved here means eternal life being forever in the mansions where God is and not just that people get to live in the afterlife with a chance to be there if they progress to be worthy enough.

  11. Ronnie can continue to call me names and carry on arguing with himself over his OWN conjecture of my statements. Anyone can read his reply, which shows he knows nothing about what I was saying but continued to argue with himself over his tainted perceptions, and see why I do not engage in conversation with him anymore.

    When I feel like being insulted or having my words taken out of context by someone who jumps to his own conclusions without facts, then I'll address him.

  12. Kent and Leah, what you're missing is that while God doesn't change, men do, and so God's commandments/rules must be customized to meet God's purposes. The Word of Wisdom is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. It is not God's objective to get men to stop drinking alcohol. It is God's objective to get men to become like God. If men can drink alcohol and still become like God, then there's no need for a commandment against it. If by commanding men to not drink alcohol more men will become like God, then God may issue a commandment against it.

    We live in very different days than did Christ or Joseph Smith. Alcohol was not mass produced in their days on any sort of scale like it is today. You couldn't just go down to the corner store and pick up a 24-pack of beer. There wasn't mass advertising. Not that you couldn't be a drunk back then too, but it certainly wasn't as easy for alcohol to take over your life. Hence the part of the Word of Wisdom that says "Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—" D&C 89:4

    The Word of Wisdom was given because of conditions that existed and would exist in the future. The conditions didn't exist in Christ's day. The conditions that existed in Joseph Smith's day were different than the conditions that exist in our day. And so the Word of Wisdom wasn't given in Christ's day, and its application has changed since the revelation was received from Joseph Smith to match the changing conditions of the world.

  13. Sounds logical…but maybe I didn't clarify my questions: I asked who gave the most recent "revelation?" God or men? Since the first one came from God and is in your scripture as such, is the 2nd revelation (the one stating you can't drink alcohol now) is it canonized as scripture from God or is it from the leaders of your church telling you what they think is right in these times?

  14. There's nothing canonized regarding the change wherein obedience to the Word of Wisdom, specifically not drinking alcohol, became a requirement for holding a temple recommend. I would assume some revelation was received on the matter, but I don't know whether it was explicit revelation, inspiration, or merely a change of interpretation. But I would assume it was one of the former two.

  15. And you are comfortable with not knowing for sure, but just listening to your leaders? I think I'd find out, no one should have that much faith in men.

  16. They're the same type of men as those who wrote the Bible. Are you saying people shouldn't have that much faith in the Bible?

  17. "Sidenote: Mormons mean something different about what saved means so I am talking about saved meaning that we will for sure be in the mansions where God is not just that we get to live in the afterlife with a chance to be there. So I am talking about saved being eternal life."

    "29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “SIRS, WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?”

    31 So they said, “BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND YOU WILL BE SAVED, you and your household.”

    Why does "saved" mean eternal life? Where are you getting this from? Could "saved" just mean raised to immortality to life forever, but not eternal life?

    "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

    And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matt 19:16-17)

    "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath bolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." (2 Timothy 1:9-10)

    It is very easy to get differing interpretations from the scriptures so using the scriptures to outright prove a point is a fruitless attempt.

  18. Brian said, "Why does “saved” mean eternal life? Where are you getting this from? Could “saved” just mean raised to immortality to life forever, but not eternal life?"

    Brian, for the moment, just consider what the Bible is saying by itself without the Mormon scriptures and the teachings of your prophets and leaders and I think you can see why I and millions of others believe saved means eternal life.

    1. everlasting and eternal are synonyms that mean the same thing and the original greek can be translated to either word 2. saved is the opposite of condemned so that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is not saved to at least the so called telestial kingdom because if most people are at least saved to that level of glory, wouldn't the Bible say so instead of saying they are condemned?

    Also, consider that if you had never heard or read any of the Mormon scriptures or had never read or heard anything from the Mormon prophets and leaders you would be hard pressed to think there even is such a thing as three degrees of glory to go to after we die but only saved, to be in heaven in the mansions where God is, or hell eternally seperated from God where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. That is where we are coming from who only use the Bible. Frankly, I don't believe the Mormon scriptures, prophets, or teachers because I believe they are not teaching the word of God.

    John 3:16-18

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    I often defined what saved means as Mormons and Christians use the term differently.

  19. "saved is the opposite of condemned so that anyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus is not saved to at least the so called telestial kingdom because if most people are at least saved to that level of glory, wouldn’t the Bible say so instead of saying they are condemned?"

    I will contend this point and say that the opposite of "saved" is "damned."

    Being saved from death is the gift Christ gave to all men, without His sacrifice we would be damned and could never progress or return to Christ or His father, for no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God. Christ saved us from sin, so it is accurate to say that all mankind is saved, for without a Savior we would never be allowed to enter the kingdom of God.

    The judgment we will all face after this life is an entirely different topic

    A good place to start learning this from the Bible is 1 Corinthians 15

    You can then read these among many other scriptures:

    Matt 12:36

    Matt 16:27

    Rom 14:10-12

    1 Peter 4:6

    From the point of view of saying nothing of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is valid, it is easy to see why people believe "saved" means eternal life. It is also easy to see why people don't believe in differing glories because it is only spoken of in 1 corinthians 15. It is also easy to see why millions of people have differing views on the bible and its teachings.

    But take this point of view with me:

    If there is more scripture than just the Bible, then you can no longer have millions of differing interpretations. For the one scripture clarifies the other. One step further with the belief in living oracles, and you can have the plain and precious doctrine clearly identified by living representatives of Jesus Christ. I think with this point of view Kent, you can see why I and millions of others would believe this way.

    Choosing to believe whatever you want to believe is an inherent right given to all of God's creations, and ultimately if God wanted to personally declare the absolute truth to the whole world, He would, but that is not the plan. We are here to choose our own ways and decide for ourselves if we will choose to follow Christ. Billions of people live on the earth and they all choose for themselves different things and some don't even know anything about Christ.

    So the question arises, is it all decided on whether we choose to accept Christ in the here and now? And if we don't accept Him while we are alive are we lost?

    I won't answer that question for any man because he has the right to decide for himself, but I will share my view very plainly.

    I believe there is a whole lot more to our mortal existence and eternity than simply being "saved."

  20. This site treats the ancient Christian belief of an opportinity to come to Christ post-mortem:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/81998936/Baptism-Salvat

  21. "They’re the same type of men as those who wrote the Bible. Are you saying people shouldn’t have that much faith in the Bible?"

    With all due respect, they are NOT the same type of men who wrote the Bible. Your leaders demand 10% of your income and the adherence to their interpretations of "revelations" in order to live with God in the afterlife. The men of the Bible NEVER gave such orders, nor ever demanded allegiances to themselves for eternal salvation, they all pointed to God to save you. Not the same at all.

    You listen to these men interpret scripture for you and set the rules required for you to enter the temple, which is necessary for the exaltation of your eternal soul! And you just "trust" whatever they tell you? If Jesus drank wine, it cannot be a sin, though you listen to men who tell you that if you drink wine, you can't enter the temple and thus essentially cannot live with God in the afterlife. The men of the Bible never said any such thing, nor did God.

    Kent: I do find that very ironic that Jesus Himself would not pass the requirements of the temple interview. The wine He drank was not grapejuice, or else why would people have accused Him of being a "winebibber" (which amounted to that of a drunk)? You wouldn't accuse someone of being a drunk just because they were drinking juice!

  22. Leah, it is also ironic that Joseph Smith could not get a temple recommend today either as not only did he drink alchohol, he had a license to sell alchohol from his house.

    If I was a Mormon and I told the bishop that I drank wine and that I sold alchohol from my house, would I ever be allowed to enter the temple?

    Yes, I know the Words of Wisdom really weren't in effect when Smith was alive but, as I said, if Smith is supposed to give us permission to enter the mansions where God is, shouldn't he be held to a higher standard than say, Joseph Jones?

    It really seems like Mormons make this stuff up as they go.

  23. Isn't it also ironic that Abraham would be convicted of attempted murder today. Or that Noah would be condemned for practicing incest. Or perhaps how Jacob and many other Biblical prophets would be imprisoned for polygamy. . .

    Just food for thought

  24. Actually it would depend on where they lived, if they were in the Middle East as they originally were polygamy is still legal in many countries, and wherever Shariah is enforced honor killings are allowed as well. When did Noah commit incest? Are you thinking of Lot perhaps?

  25. @Kent – Mormons believe that doctrines/principles and practices are separate, and that practices can be prescribed and unprescribed by God according to his will, depending on circumstances. "Don't drink alcohol" isn't an eternal principle, it's a practice. The revelation giving the Word of Wisdom states that it is given because of specific circumstances that existed or would exist in the last days.

    If you don't believe God can change what he commands depending on time and circumstances, then you must also condemn Peter and the other apostles for not keeping all the laws of the Old Testament. But if you accept that many of the laws of the Old Testament were fulfilled in Christ, then you must also accept that there is no reason why Joseph Smith couldn't have been completely righteous as he drank alcohol in his day, and yet this would be a sin for a practicing Mormon today.

  26. We are a group of volunteers and starting a new scheme in our community. Your site provided us with helpful info to paintings on. You have done an impressive process and our entire neighborhood can be grateful to you.

  27. Good news from the winery. If you ever make unfermented wine, I'll b einterested.

    As to what is and what is not a sacred requirement, it is obvious to Bible readers that take not of what they read that God's revealed will in the Holy Bible regarding what was permitted for people to eat and drink changed considerably over time to reflect in each age according to the changing will of God what God's particular will was when God changed the dietary laws for the faithful, which is something he did several times.

    It is not a difficult task to consult the Bible for oneself to see these remarkable changes, and yet you will not search the Scriptures with any intent other than to find fault with Christians.

    To make remarks such as that dealt with in the OP is to miss what God is saying and doing, and to turn his revealed word into a hammer with which to beat upon the pate of those that not only read the word of God, but that also hold themselves in subjection to it.

    No Christian whose feet are firmly planted in the footprints of the Master would do any such thing. By their boots ye shall know them!

    In whose tracks are your boots planted?

    Isaiah 29:1

  28. So-called 'Honour Killings' have nothing to do with Shariah. 'Honour Killings' are a cultural thing and are unrelated to any religion or religious purpose.

    Those who do not have the intellectual rigour to undertake proper research are likely to make all manner of silly, baseless statements, because they think they know, but they are wells wihtout water expressing zeal without knowledge: an activity that the Bible calls works of darkness.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8Go46Nhos8

    Anyone that is ant–anything will end up anti-everything, because their minds have been turned to mischief by the Devil.

    The TRUTH shall make you free!

  29. Is your only reaction either to insult a person's intelligence or to accuse them of being of the devil? Weak. You don't scare me with your accusations or insults. I know who I belong to, and nothing you think or say will EVER change that.

    You are arguing semantics anyways…laws in the Shariah are used to justify honor killings, whether or not the actual command is given. Muslims get the idea that they should use honor killings due to their teachings in the Koran and from Shariah. Kind of like Brigham Young teaching blood atonement due to the Mormon teaching that Jesus' blood doesn't cover all sin…it's not explicitly stated to shed the blood of others, but he came to the conclusion that you should due to the Mormon scripture.

    "Islamic law…says that "retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right." HOWEVER, "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring." ('Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2).

    So are you saying that they don't get the idea that honor killings are ok from their law and scripture? Did you read that?? It implies mothers and fathers are not subject to the same penalties for killing their own children. This is just one example, Islam is ripe with teachings that encourage this type of behavior, which is WHY their culture accepts it!

    Go ahead and continue to look down your nose at others and act like everyone else is "without knowledge" except the prideful, arrogant, smarter-than-everyone-else-Ronnie. I don't know why I'm even dignifying your comments with a response. Good day, sir.

    P.S.

    Your mom is of the devil.

  30. @ Leah

    Now you have hit the bottom of the cesspit!

    Shariah does NOT permit honour killings.

    My poor dead mother was an Anglican.

  31. LEAH: "Your mom is of the Devil"

    RONNIE: "My poor dead mother was an Anglican."

    I would just like to point out here that anyone can call themselves Christians or Methodists or Muslims or Mormons. Someone who is of the Devil could be found in all religions and under any title.

    The religion you prescribe to does not alone make you a follower of Jesus Christ or of Satan. Your thoughts words and deeds make you either a follower of Jesus Christ or of Satan.

  32. Leah

    Your evil comment about my mother shows that you are not a Christian.

    You insult a good woman who you do not know, but you shove Almighty God from his judgement seat and spill your venom thoughtlessly.

  33. My comment about your mother was in response to you saying I WAS OF THE DEVIL and was meant to sound just as CHILDISH! Seriously people?? Are you too old to know a "your mom" insult?

    "Anyone that is ant–anything will end up anti-everything, because their minds have been turned to mischief by the Devil." -Ronnie, referring to my comments

    "…an activity that the Bible calls works of darkness."- Ronnie, on my "activities"

    WHAT ABOUT YOU INSULTING SOMEONE YOU DO NOT KNOW?? I guess your evil comments to me show you are not a Christian then also. And those are just from this post, you can read on this site on other posts where Ronnie has said I am of the devil…I'd say at least 5 other times minimum.

    This is why I, several times, have refused to engage Ronnie in conversations and have ignored his comments, because THIS always happens. He calls people of the devil and insults their intelligence, and then cannot take it when its turned back on him. You thoughtlessly put yourself on God's judgement seat and condemn others far too often. You or Brian are not God and do not decide who is of the devil or not, God is my Judge and the only Judge.

    Now again for the last time, I will say I am not speaking/answering Ronnie anymore. He always stirs up contention, and contention is OF THE DEVIL! Muah ha ha ha ha! (that's sarcasm since I'm sure you won't get that either.) This is ridiculous.

  34. In fact, I'd have to say after I have repeatedly told Ronnie that I would have nothing further to do with his baiting, it's clear he purposely trolls my comments and says derogatory things to me to draw me into these contentious arguments. I am only sorry I fell for his trap again, I am sure he hopes it will run me off and shut me up. I used to be able to have purposeful conversations with Joshua on here, and now I find myself attacked by Ronnie every chance he gets when he singles out MY comments and tells me I am of the devil. So VERY Christian of him.

  35. "For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another."

    3 Nephi 11:29

  36. Leahr how bad you sound. U R always angry. God is not mocked

  37. "God is not mocked" Are you somehow implying that this site and the Mormons speaking on it are somehow the mouthpiece of God? You are delusional, I have NEVER mocked the One True God.

    "Judge not lest ye be judged." -Jesus

    "Remove the plank from your own eye then you can remove the speck from your brother's." -Jesus

    "You hypocrites!" -Jesus

    Go ahead and do what Mormons do best, look down their prideful noses at others and judge them. If you had been called "of the devil" numerous times by someone, you would not have justified anger? I am not always angry, you do not know me. Excuse me for finding it deplorable to constantly accuse any opposition to your beliefs as "of the devil." I guess if you think you are perfect…

    "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean"-Jesus

    Why can't people just stick to the discussion on hand here? They have to accuse people of being"of the devil" if they disagree with them. Then I have to defend myself personally to ad hominem attacks to people WHO HAVE NEVER MET ME. Typical Mormons, attack the person instead of the argument.

    "You generation of snakes" -Jesus

  38. Leah, I have noticed a response from Mormons when I have questioned and been critical of what their church teaches that they often respond that I am attacking them personally when in fact I have never said anything personal about anyone, here or anywhere else, at all.

    I also see how the passage from the Book of Mormon that Brian quoted, found in 3 Nephi 11:29, that says contention is of the devil, can be used to keep Mormons from questioning what their leaders are teaching and I now better understand why a Mormon missionary said I was of the devil, even when I used the Bible as my source, when I challenged Mormon beliefs because, to him, I was being contentious.

  39. I have been called of the devil so many times from Mormons I should be used to it by now! I see it as tactic they use to try and shut you up and make you go away quietly. My theory is since they are taught to rely on emotions so much, when they get bad feelings of their beliefs possibly not being true, it's scary and ugly feeling. Thus they associate it with being of the devil, especially when they are told it is also. I know that is how I felt when I first started learning the truth about the Mormon church…I didn't want to hear it and rejected most of it at first, because it made me feel terrible inside. To think that everything I had been taught was a lie and a deception was a lot to bear, and it does effect you physically. It's fear plain and simple, and so they point to those carrying the message and say they are of the devil.

  40. "Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

    But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God."

    Moroni 7:13

    I think what you both are missing here is that the Devil's power is abounding in the world today and he has the majority on his side, or at least he has the majority mislead and misunderstanding the doctrine and work of Jesus Christ.

    "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

    Romans 3:23

    By virtue of us all being sinners, we are all in the hands and power of the Devil and will be compelled to dwell with him in darkness forever; unless, we yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and become saints through Jesus Christ.

    The Devil has power over billions on this earth, and he continues to gain power when we ignore the subtle promptings of the Holy Spirit.

    The greatest mistake one can make in a confrontation is to underestimate the power of one's opponent. His skill to feed you a little bit of truth to blind you from the full truth. This is evidenced throughout the scriptures. Take for example Acts 19:3:

    "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

    Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

    When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

    These were believers, people who today would call themselves Christians, and they knew nothing of the Holy Ghost. They were fed a half truth, believing that they only needed to be received into baptism to be saved. They were received into baptism, but they were deceived because the were not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ nor did they receive the Holy Ghost after that baptism.

    I don't know how you guys choose to interpret this scripture, but to me, that is a startling example of Satan's power. He led these people into a false baptism (Ephesians 4:5) and they thought they were just fine.

    "For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

    And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

    And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance."

    2 Nephi 28:20-22

    Luckily for those who had been baptized in John's name, they were able to recognize the divine authority held by the apostles and were then baptized correctly in the name of Jesus Christ.

    The idea of authority has been destroyed in our days. People in assumed positions of authority have abused and misused their authority to the point where people cannot as easily recognize God's divine authority on the earth today. People fail to recognize the divinely appointed Prophets and Apostles that we have on the earth today.

    Faith, in the world today, is dead. There is nothing stopping us today from witnessing such miraculous things as those of old did witness, save it is our own doubt and unbelief. We slowly have been conditioned to expect less good and more evil. Many of us ignore miracles and the ministering of angels simply because we have been taught such things no longer take place.

    I stand as a witness that the divine authority of God is wielded in His church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Prophets and Apostles stand today as witnesses of Jesus Christ and preach His gospel all over the world, bringing with them miracles and the ministering of angels. I know the power of the Devil is abounding in the world today, but the Gospel of Jesus Christ will sweep through every nation until all will bow and worship at the feet of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

  41. No one is contesting the "devil is abounding in the world today." What I do contest is being told by Mormons that he abounds in ME because I do not share in your beliefs. Your BOM scripture you quote, the "authority" of your prophets, and your testimony mean absolutely nothing to me. I could get the same type of testimony from a Muslim. I do have faith, a saving faith in Jesus, and just because it isn't a faith in YOUR prophets or YOUR church does not make it "dead."

  42. I want to see a site with Muslims and Mormons debating…they both have "prophets" that received new scripture from an angel, they both claim to have the "most correct book," they are both 100% positive that their religion is the only true religion on earth…the Muslims so much that they'll blow themselves up for it! I'd say they have more faith than Mormons…I wonder how they'd argue who was right or wrong? Whose angel was lying and whose wasn't? Whose book is more correct, and how would you measure it? Whose prophet has the authority and why? This is why testimony is meaningless…it's completely objective and someone else will have stronger feelings than you, and how do you tell whose is genuinely of God and whose is false? These are questions you should be asking yourself if you think your prophet/book/testimony are better than others who have the SAME story of religious origins.

    It would be a very interesting conversation!

  43. Correction: testimony is completely subjective, not "objective." Oops.

  44. Why evangelicals must stand up to anti-Mormon bigotry

    As a boy from West Virginia, I disliked the negative stereotypes about my state. Nearly as bad was when you met a West Virginian determined to live up to them. Bigots are incorrigible enough, but encouraging them by playing to type empowers them.

    A bigot can be an inexcusable ignoramus who does not understand a group, but insists on opining about them. Another kind of bigot insists on applying irrelevant standards to a person. This is not excusable even if the standards are relevant in a different situation.

    Given my proclivities, my spouse had to be a woman, but gender would not be relevant in most other situations. A refusal to vote for a woman because she is a woman is bigoted and not made better because gender was once relevant to me as a basis for a good decision.

    A Republican pastor says evangelicals should not vote for Mitt Romney, because he is Mormon. By itself, this might be acceptable, if unwise rhetoric, assuming this pastor has good reasons for his position. After all religious choices allow voters one way of guessing what a leader will be like.

    Those most resistant to voting for a Mormon are on the left. Since most Mormons hold to traditional moral positions on abortion and marriage, and Romney agrees with those positions, this is relevant to contemporary politics. This might not be an example of bigotry, though it often veers there when mockery is deployed about private religious practices not relevant to fitness to hold office.

    This evangelical pastor did not suggest that he disagreed with Romney’s views on life and marriage or any other religious issue with political implications. Instead, he attacked Mormonism for not being evangelical, Romney for not being born again, and Mormonism as a cult.

    This is bigotry buttressed by irrelevance fortified with invincible ignorance.

    Why?

    First, being evangelical is not a relevant criteria for being president. It never has been in evangelical history. Lincoln appealed for our votes and got them without being (necessarily) one of us. Evangelicals have voted for Unitarians for president, because they rightly recognized that Trinitarian theology might be relevant in a pastor, but not in a president.

    Give conservative Christians a small government atheist rather than a tyrannical evangelical!

    Second, our civil leaders need not be born again. As a man I hope Mitt Romney goes to heaven, but as president I do not care. The man qualified for the life to come can rule there, but I am looking for a person fit leadership in the world now.

    Rick Perry may be born again, but his incompetent tolerance of a bigot to introduce him suggests bad things about his competence in the here and now. As a result, I will look forward to seeing him at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, but if he does not repudiate the comments, will pass on him for the Inaugural Ball.

    He can retire to the theological life where he has such sterling qualifications.

    To add insult to bigotry, the pastor decided to name call by saying Mormonism is a cult. The use of cult to describe the Mormon faith is foolish and offensive in a political context.

    The word cult has many meanings, including a technical religious one. The Mormon Church is not “standard” historic Christianity as Mormons point out in their witness. They think they have something new and valuable to say religiously.

    Most of the public does not think doctrine, but danger when they hear the term cult. He imagines scary folk living in compounds drinking Kool-aid, not Harry Reid or Mitt Romney.

    In that popular sense, Mormonism is not a cult and should scare no American. Mormons have been faithful citizens, dying in our wars for republican values. Does Rick Perry’s pastor friend acknowledge this truth? Can a Mormon die for the Republic in battle, but still not serve as commander in the White House?

    For mainstream evangelicals such bigoted attacks on Romney are an embarrassment. They often seem to rely on fear of difference, a sense that other groups are “weird.” Everybody seems weird to somebody some time, but loving people get past such feelings. If the Mormon who dies for my freedom doesn’t seem weird, neither should the Mormon politician.

    Most evangelicals are horrified by lies told about Mormons in mainstream media, because we love our Mormon neighbor. They are friends, relatives, and allies in many fights. We disagree on vital theological issues, but those are not relevant to our vote for president.

    Evangelical Christianity does not place all power in the state and so rejects messianic leaders. We want a president, not a prophet in office. A Mormon cannot be my priest, but he can be my political leader.

    Worse is the impact of bigotry on my Mormon neighbor. It is a betrayal of the love Jesus commanded us to show. If I can love my enemy, surely I can easily love the Mormon next door. I hate the pain caused my Mormon neighbor by ignorance and bigotry.

    My Mormon friends do not complain or become defensive. Like the Christ, my experience has been resignation and love when my Mormon friends see slander.

    Mormons saw their first prophet murdered by an American mob, but still they loyally serve a Republic whose laws have often failed them. They created a paradise in a wilderness and great literature and a first-rate university against all odds.

    Evangelicals recognize and admire this achievement. We must do as we have always done and vote the platform and the person and not the pulpit.

  45. First off, as a free American with a husband who has fought, yes fought (not supported or handed out supplies) for this country, I may vote for whomever I choose using whichever criteria I use without being called a bigot. Didn't you just explain that name calling and fear were tactics of bigots? But then you employed them yourself. One can bring a person's religious affiliation into consideration when choosing who to vote for, it actually would be wise to examine all aspects of a person who wants to run this country. Would you vote for an Imam of Islam without considering what that might mean to you? I find it amusing to see Republican Mormons, many of whom were attacking Obama as a "Muslim" or attacking his pastor Jeremiah Wright for what he was teaching, are NOW saying we shouldn't care about a person's religion when voting. Oh how the tables have turned.

    Second, you obviously have not researched Romney. You think he is a traditional conservative and not to be feared by Republicans?? Seriously? Where do you get your info, the Huffington Post? He has flip flopped on abortion so many times and was pro-choice before, you can look up his voting record. He offered $50 copay for abortions in his Romneycare, which became a $0 copay for surgical abortions. Free abortions! He introduced gay marriage in MA, he promoted homosexuality in elementary schools, and is for gays openly serving in our military! You also mentioned Harry Reid as not being "scary folk," are you kidding me?? Here's a site with full documentation on Romney's record http://massresistance.org/romney/ I think you should educate yourself and then make a choice for who you vote for, based on ALL the information. If you want to vote for Romney, fine go ahead, you have the same freedom. But it's a personal choice, and for you to start throwing about the "anti-mormon bigotry" card is as tasteless as liberals saying people who don't like Obama are racist. There are plenty of reasons not to vote for Romney if one chooses, and his Mormonism is only a small part of it.

    Your political rant was a nice try, but it was an emotional plea filled with only opinions, then invoking fear of "or else you'll be called a bigot," that you used to try and sway people. The Romney camp knows they need the Evangelical vote to get their man in the White House, but you might want to give them a real reason to vote for him instead of calling them bigots. I've been called "of the devil" from Mormons, so go ahead and add "bigot" to the list, because I will not be scared into voting for anyone I don't feel is right for the job. I have freedom to do so, praise the Lord!

  46. And my comment was also to others in general, I understand from your post that you said you are not a Mormon, so when I put in behavior's of Mormons I was not addressing you if that is the case.

  47. Leah,

    I've said it once before to you, but you must have forgotten. Mormons and Muslims do have a bit in common, but the conversation would be a very short one because no one matches the claims of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

    Joseph's testimony was that he saw God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, that he was told by Christ that no church on the earth had His divine authority and leadership, and that Joseph was to restore Christ's true church to the earth. That Peter, James, and John manifested themselves to the Prophet and gave him the authority to act in the name of God. That an angel of the Lord directed him to an ancient book of scripture (important side-note: Joseph did not write the book, he translated the ancient text written by prophets in the Americas). That by revelation all men and women in every land could come to know for themselves that these things are true. That the Church of Jesus Christ would sweep through every land and hundreds of Temples would dot the world.

    So Leah, don't pretend like any other religion in this world can come even remotely close to the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. No other religion claims to have restored an inspired work of scripture, claims to have direct authority from Christ Himself, and then provides the ultimate freedom to say, believe as you wish, you are not compelled to stay except by the witnesses to your faith.

    Many people I have spoken to, have asked the question, "Well if it is true, then why would the whole world not have already accepted it as such, and why would great Christians not immediately recognize it as truth and join with you."

    God does not practice compulsion, and His children can act for themselves and choose whatever it may be that makes them happy. Man was created for the purpose of having Joy. It brings no joy and no growth to never be tested and to never choose for one's self.

    The other side of that coin, is that at one point all mankind will have to follow their Savior Jesus Christ before they can enter into His Kingdom. Just as Christ was baptized, everyone must follow His example and be baptized. Here is a scripture that teaches this principle perfectly:

    "5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!

    6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?

    7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.

    8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.

    9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.

    10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?

    11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

    12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do."

    2 Nephi 31:5-12

  48. Oy vey Brian…The key word is "claims." Claims is all you can ever prove, just because they are audacious enough to claim something does not make it true.They have "claimed" lots of things, only to have new "prophets" come in and "claim" something different. I don't have to "pretend" anything, I have seen enough evidence to know their claims are false.

    Why don't you provide me something showing their claims are true? Such as Smith's claim he saw God and Jesus in the "first vision," which is technically his 4th or 5th rendering of the event? Read them and you tell me which one is "true."

    http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/fvision-accou

    Or what about polygamy being needed for exaltation? That is still in your scripture, yet a "prophet" claimed it should stop. Or the claim that the penalty for mixing your seed with a black person was death by beheading and this would "always be so" from Young. Do your prophets still claim that is true today? Which claims do you trust? The Mormon "claims" change like the wind, and I would not put my trust in such "claims."

  49. Mormon Jesus explains the first vision beautifully:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-nE3bT-YHE&fe

  50. Leah,

    Don't you know that the witness comes only after the trial of your faith. Just because you never received your witness that the teachings of the church are true, does not make you the divine authority who can say that they are false.

    Man is not, and never will be perfect. President Brigham Young displayed this perfectly when he arose one morning to speak with the saints and prepared them for the armies of the US Government who were coming to inspect the temple grounds. President Brigham spoke fervently that the saints would stand their ground and fight for their freedom through whatever means necessary. After he concluded and after a short break he returned and said to the saints. This morning Brigham Young the man has addressed you, this afternoon the Prophet Brigham Young will address you. In which address he recounted his words of the morning and advised the saints to stand peacefully and obey the government forces.

    Leah, you get so caught up on the "facts" and "provide me something showing their claims are true."

    Leah, that has been in front of you this whole time. The Book of Mormon is "showing their claims" are true. All you need to do, and all anyone needs to do, is heed to the words of the Prophet Moroni:

    "3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

    4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

    Moroni 10:3-5

    It is a simple task, not an easy task, but a simple one. Millions have received this witness from the Holy Ghost, and millions will yet receive such a witness. I have seen even the most belligerent non-believers humble themselves before God and be grateful for the rest of their lives that they did not leave this world without knowing for themselves that the Book of Mormon was indeed true. Just as one is never too far gone to return and embrace the Savior Jesus Christ, He, our supreme creator, is ever waiting to bestow upon us His eternal truths which hinge upon the trial of our faith. He will bless you with a knowledge that the Book of Mormon is true.

    The question is, do you love Him enough to heed the words of Moroni?

    "4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

    Moroni 10:4-5

  51. You do know I am a Christian right? I don't understand why if I already know, love and serve Jesus, do I need to pray about your book? You claim to be a Christian also, so why do I need to subscribe to YOUR brand of belief? Are you suggesting that Christians such as myself are not true Christians and need Joseph Smith to be a true Christian?? Why isn't my Jesus and my holy book good enough? Why do you speak to me like I am a lost soul if we are both Christians? Answer: because you're a Mormon and have completely different beliefs from Christians, and you know it. Otherwise my belief in my Jesus would be enough.

    This is just for arguments sake, because I have read and prayed about the BOM and received the answer that it wasn't true. Just like MILLIONS of others. I don't know what your point is about millions of people believing it, does how many people you can con make you true? There are about 2 billion Muslims, and you know Mormons only account for about 0.2% of the earth's population.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy5r7FIxFA4

    I don't get your point in the BY story, are you agreeing that your prophets have led people astray and changed their minds about things?

    And why did you completely avoid my question on the first vision, did you even read the accounts or watch the video?

  52. Brian, I think it would be a safe bet that you don't believe that my friend, a white woman who married a black man, should not be killed on the spot.

    If this is the case, then why not as your prophet, Brigham Young, said that race mixers should be killed on the spot, that it is God's law, and that it will always be so. It is clear that Young claimed to be speaking for God when he said those things so now, if you don't believe it is so, why do you not believe what your prophet said?

    Brigham Young, “The Persecutions of the Saints, etc.,” (8 March 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:111

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

  53. "Why isn't my Jesus and my holy book good enough"

    "One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"

    Eph 4:5

    "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    John 3:5

    "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

    Amos 3:7

    I could continue, but the bible can be interpreted any way you wish it to be, because you recognize no other source as scripture and do not recognize revelation nor divine authority.

    Hopefully that helps you understand the importance of the Book of Mormon. Its divinity clarifies the Bible and allows everyone everywhere to find the answers we all seek. It all rests on the divinity of the Book of Mormon. Either the Book of Mormon was brought forth under the direction of Jesus Christ, or the young uneducated Joseph Smith had quite a talent for writing a book of fiction which would create a fast growing devotion which would last far past his mortality.

    Which is harder to believe?

    I have to answer your question with a question of my own.

    Why is your Jesus and your holy book good enough for you?

  54. My last post should read that it is a safe bet that Brian (and other Mormons for that matter) believe that my friend, a while woman who married a black man, should not be killed on the spot.

    If this is the case, then why not as your prophet, Brigham Young, said that race mixers should be killed on the spot, that it is God’s law, and that it will always be so. It is clear that Young claimed to be speaking for God when he said those things so now, if you don’t believe it is so, why do you not believe what your prophet said?

    Brigham Young, “The Persecutions of the Saints, etc.,” (8 March 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:111

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

  55. Brian said, "Hopefully that helps you understand the importance of the Book of Mormon. Its divinity clarifies the Bible and allows everyone everywhere to find the answers we all seek. It all rests on the divinity of the Book of Mormon. Either the Book of Mormon was brought forth under the direction of Jesus Christ, or the young uneducated Joseph Smith had quite a talent for writing a book of fiction which would create a fast growing devotion which would last far past his mortality."

    At least on this one point anyway, the Book of Mormon does agree with the Bible that God has always been God, that He doesn't change, "God is the same yesterday, today, and forever", and it doesn't say anywhere that God was a man first. The BOM, like the Bible, teaches that there were no heavens yet until God created them so there couldn't have been any planets (among all things in the heavens that God created) yet for God to be a man on before he became God.

    Mormon 9:9-11

    9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

    10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.

    11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.

    One more thing, "it all rests on the divinity of the Book of Mormon"? Shouldn't that read that you believe that the BOM is divinely inspired but that it doesn't have divinity itself? As if it has divinity itself, that makes it sound like the BOM is a god itself.

  56. "Joseph’s testimony was that he saw God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ…"

    Brian, your conviction rests on just one of the 9 different versions of Joseph Smith's visionary testimony accounts. Can you explain why you've decided to accept this testimony version and not one of Smith's 8 alternate testimonies? For instance, why do you not accept the versions where he saw just a single angel, saw two angels, saw many angels or saw Jesus alone?

    Thanks for your thoughts.

  57. If we reject Joseph Smith for giving different details of a divine vision, then we must also reject Paul for his differing accounts of his vision on the road to Damascus. Paul relates this story three times in the Bible (Acts chapters 9, 22, and 26), and each time there appear to be differences, even contradictions. There are many details that differ between the three accounts. A well-known problem concerns the other witnesses who were with Paul. Look at the three accounts:

    — Acts 9:7 —

    And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

    — Acts 22:9 —

    And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

    –Acts 26:14 —

    And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me. . .

    This is Jeff Lindsay's question about hostile attitudes to disparate accounts of Joseph;s First Vision:

    If we reject Joseph Smith for offering various accounts that emphasize or exclude different details of the same experience, then by that standard we would also have to reject the Bible.

    For example, Luke 24:4 says that two angels appeared at the empty tomb to several women, while Matthew 28:2 mentions just one angel.

    Anti-Mormon writers would have riotous fun with this "contradiction" if it occurred in the Book of Mormon.

    However, we can give the Bible the benefit of a doubt by suggesting that both Matthew and Luke were describing the same event, but that Matthew overlooked the second angel in his account.

    If we reject Joseph Smith for giving different details of a divine vision, then we must also reject Paul for his differing accounts of his vision on the road to Damascus.

    Paul relates this story three times in the Bible (Acts chapters 9, 22, and 26), and each time there appear to be differences, even contradictions. There are many details that differ between the three accounts. A well-known problem concerns the other witnesses who were with Paul.

    Look at the three accounts:

    — Acts 9:7 —

    And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

    — Acts 22:9 —

    And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

    –Acts 26:14 —

    And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me. . .

    Did the others hear the voice or not? Did they fall or remain standing? Does it really matter? Anti-Mormon critics would revel in an apparent contradiction of this magnitude in the Book of Mormon or in the history of Joseph Smith, but they are quick to gloss over such problems in the Bible. I think we need to be generous with Paul and recognize that the peripheral details are not essential for his message. Perhaps the apparent contradictions just relate different aspects of a single story, with others who may have heard the voice and may have been standing initially, but then later fell and did not hear part of the message.

    Frankly, it looks like a minor contradiction, perhaps resulting from a lapse in memory concerning details of the event, but it does not bother me because I do not require the Bible to be infallible in minor details to still be scripture from God.

    For your information, there are several more differences in the three accounts of Paul's vision worth noting. Some of the differences seem minor and easily compatible. For example, Acts 9 and 22 simply say the light that Paul saw appeared around him, while Acts 26 say the light was around him and those that were with him. All three agree that the Lord said, "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" and that Paul said, "Who art thou, Lord?". However, in Acts 9, the Lord says "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" before Paul responds, while Acts 26 has the Lord say that after Paul responds, and Acts 22 makes no mention of that statement from the Lord.

    More analogous to the Joseph Smith First Vision accounts, the accounts in Acts 9 and 22 conclude by telling of how Paul regained his sight and make no mention of statements from the Lord about Paul's future mission. Later, though, in Acts 26, Paul does not even mention his blindness and his miraculous recovery, but says instead that the Lord prophesied to him of his future mission among the Gentiles. If Paul were Joseph Smith, critics would accuse him of fabricating new twists to his story and contradicting himself, but I feel it's more fair to believe that both Paul and Joseph were relating different parts of their visionary experiences. Initially, Paul may have been most concerned about the healing of his eyes (as Joseph seems to have been most concerned about the forgiveness of his sins), while later his recollection of the Lord's words about his mission to the Gentiles became a more important part of the vision (as did the explanation of Joseph's future mission).

    Also worth noting is the fact that Paul, like Joseph, seems to have waited several years before recording his vision. It may have been 24 years from the time of that vision until the time it was written as we have it in the Bible (Richard L. Anderson, as quoted by Milton V. Backman, "Joseph Smith's Recitals of the First Vision," Ensign, Jan. 1985, pp. 8-17). We should not criticize Joseph for waiting to make a full record, not only because of Paul's precedent, but because young Joseph was in difficult circumstances, lacked academic training, and had been strongly rejected already for sharing it with others. But once he understood that he needed to make a history, he did so quickly.

    The standard that would rashly condemn Joseph Smith for differences in focus in his First Vision accounts might also condemn Paul for his various accounts which also differ in focus and may even contain a genuine contradiction or two. Conclusion: be careful about judging others rashly and making a man an offender for a word. Seek to understand honestly, not just to find reasons to condemn. The Bible is true, in spite of some minor problems, and Joseph Smith's First Vision accounts, as given directly by him, are also true. How can you know that for sure? Read the Book of Mormon – it's the evidence of Joseph's divine calling as the Prophet of the Restoration. If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.

  58. Dr. Bohica,

    My simple answer to your question is that Joseph was blessed with many visions. It is not my place to judge a man's relationship with his maker, nor am i going to use my time to complicate things.

    The gospel is simple and plain, and it will always be so.

    Why do I believe the Prophet Joseph Smith's testimony? Because I have asked God, and received a revelation that it was true. Why do I believe the Book of Mormon is true? Because I have asked God and received revelation that it is true. This is the pattern I follow everyday of my life, because I am a simple enough man to believe the Lord Jesus Christ when he has said, "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (Matt 21:22) And, " If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." (James 1:5)

    I believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be very plain and simple, man too often tries to complicate things. Take for example this scripture speaking of the Israelites who were with Moses in the wilderness:

    "And he did straiten them in the wilderness with his rod; for they hardened their hearts, even as ye have; and the Lord straitened them because of their iniquity. He sent fiery flying serpents among them; and after they were bitten he prepared a way that they might be healed; and the labor which they had to perform was to look; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished."

    1 Nephi 17:41

    We don't need to do anything more than to look at our Savior and live in order to have the truths of eternity revealed unto us. All things will be added unto us when we faithfully follow the counsel of the scriptures.

    What simple faith it was that led the apostles to drop their nets and follow Christ. What simple faith it was for the woman to believe that all it would take to heal her would be to touch Christ's clothing. What simple faith it would have taken the rich man to sell all, give to the poor, and follow Christ. And what simple faith it takes to receive revelation from God, "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (Matt 21:22)

    The simple and the meek will inherit the Kingdom of God. If only such simple faith existed more abundantly in the world today.

  59. Brian, but belief that we can't get to the mansion where God and Jesus Christ are without Joseph Smith's consent is not faith in Christ because Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

  60. "The gospel is simple and plain, and it will always be so."

    I agree, the gospel means "good news." Brian can you tell us what the "gospel" is? What is the good news of Mormonism? If I was not a member and I wanted to hear your gospel and be saved, what would you tell me the good news was?

  61. .

    Kent – that is what Mormons believe. Welcome to the club!

    Mormons also believe what Jesus told his faithful disciples:

    "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me." Matthew 10:40.

    Non-LDS Christian divine and Bible Commentary author, Dr Gill says concerning this direction from Jesus Christ:

    He that receiveth you, receiveth me,…. This is said to comfort the disciples, lest they should conclude from this account of the sorrows, afflictions, and persecutions they were to meet with, that there would be none that would receive them and their message; Christ therefore suggests, that there would be some that would embrace the Gospel preached by them, and receive them kindly into their houses, and entertain them in a very hospitable manner: and, for the encouragement of such persons, who would risk their own goods and lives by so doing, he lets them know, that receiving of his disciples, was interpreted by him, a receiving of himself; and what they did to them, would be taken as kindly, as if done to him personally; and, in like manner, would it be understood and accepted by his Father:

    " … he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me."

    Which agrees with what the Jews say * of the angel, in Exodus 23:22

    "If thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I shall speak": who observe, that it is not written, "that he shall speak", but "that I shall speak"; intimating, that , "if ye receive him, it is all one as if you received me": and the whole of this accords with a common saying among (q) them, , "that a man's messenger is as himself".

    The Jew **, therefore, has no reason to reproach Christ and his followers as he does, as if it was the sense of these words of Christ, and which the Christians give of them, that Christ and his apostles [and other commissioned messengers] were as but one and the same person.

    * Shemot Rabba Parash. 32. fol. 135. 3.((q) T. Bab. Baracot, fol. 34. 2. Kiddushin, fol. 41. 2. 42. 1. & 43. 1. Bava Metzia, fol. 96. 1.

    ** R. Isaac Chizzuk Emuna, par 2. sect. 14. p. 404.

    The Lord Jesus Christ also said:

    "He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward." Matthew 10:41.

    Concerning this saying, Clarke, also a Non-LDS Christian divine and biblical commentator says:

    "He that receiveth a Προφητην, a 'teacher,' not necessarily a foreteller of future events, for this is not always the meaning of the word; but one commissioned by God to teach the doctrines of eternal life.

    "It is no small honor to receive into one's house a minister of Jesus Christ. Every person is not admitted to exercise the sacred ministry; but none are excluded from partaking of its grace, its spirit, and its reward.

    "If the teacher should be weak, or even if he should be found afterwards to have been worthless, yet the person who has received him in the name, under the sacred character, of an evangelist, shall not lose his reward; because what he did he did for the sake of Christ, and through love for his Church.

    "Many sayings of this kind are found among the rabbins, and this one is common:

    "He who receives a learned man, or an elder, into his house, is the same as if he had received the Shekinah."

    And again:

    "He who speaks against a faithful pastor, it is the same as if he had spoken against God himself."

    Those that would distort the meaning of these saying distort God's word. God does and says nothing with out a reason, and his reason is always to enlighten, save, and exalt us.

    Let us, therefore, acknowledge God's hand in all things, and submit ourselves to HIS will and yield ourselves to HIS purposes even when he leads us through what we consider, in our fo0lly, to be darkness, because God always leads us towards HIS light, whether we can see it or not when we view it distantly and through the lens of our prejudices.

    No one was more maligned, distorted, and misunderstood than Jesus himself. He told his servants that they would be subjected to the same cavils, and they always have been so treated, especially by those wise in their own conceits. It is the purpose of faith in God and his Christ to overcome individual prejudices so that, having overcome them, we can then arrive at God's truth.

    That man whose hand is in the hand of the lord need fear nothing whether he understands it or not.

    Matthew Henry [another Non-LDS Christian divine and Bible expert] has:

    Matthew 10:16-42

    "Our Lord warned his disciples to prepare for persecution. They were to avoid all things which gave advantage to their enemies, all meddling with worldly or political concerns, all appearance of evil or selfishness, and all underhand measures. Christ foretold troubles, not only that the troubles might not be a surprise, but that they might confirm their faith. He tells them what they should suffer, and from whom.

    Thus Christ has dealt fairly and faithfully with us, in telling us the worst we can meet with in his service; and he would have us deal so with ourselves, in sitting down and counting the cost.

    Persecutors are worse than beasts, in that they prey upon those of their own kind. The strongest bonds of love and duty, have often been broken through from enmity against Christ.

    Sufferings from friends and relations are very grievous; nothing cuts more. It appears plainly, that all who will live godly in Christ Jesus must suffer persecution; and we must expect to enter into the kingdom of God through many tribulations.

    With these predictions of trouble, are counsels and comforts for a time of trial. Faithful disciples of Christ are hated and persecuted as serpents, and their ruin is sought by those that in the name of religion array themselves as enemies against them, and saints thus need the serpent's wisdom. "Be ye harmless as doves."

    Not only, do nobody any hurt, but bear nobody any ill-will. Prudent care there must be, but not an anxious, perplexing thought; let this care be cast upon God. The disciples of Christ must think more how to do well, than how to speak well.

    In case of great peril, the disciples of Christ may go out of the way of danger, though they must not go out of the way of duty.

    No sinful, unlawful means may be used to escape; for then it is not a door of God's opening. The fear of man brings a snare, a perplexing snare, that disturbs our peace; an entangling snare, by which we are drawn into sin; and, therefore, it must be striven and prayed against. Tribulation, distress, and persecution cannot take away God's love to them, or theirs to him. Fear Him, who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    They must deliver their message publicly, for all are deeply concerned in the doctrine of the gospel. The whole counsel of God must be made known, Acts 20:27.

    Christ shows them why they should be of good cheer. Their sufferings witnessed against those who oppose his gospel. When God calls us to speak for him, we may depend on him to teach us what to say. A believing prospect of the end of our troubles, will be of great use to support us under them. They may be borne to the end, because the sufferers shall be borne up under them. The strength shall be according to the day. And it is great encouragement to those who are doing Christ's work, that it is a work which shall certainly be done.

    See how the care of Providence extends to all creatures, even to the sparrows. This should silence all the fears of God's people; Ye are of more value than many sparrows. And the very hairs of your head are all numbered. This denotes the account God takes and keeps of his people. It is our duty, not only to believe in Christ, but to profess that faith, in suffering for him, when we are called to it, as well as in serving him. That denial of Christ only is here meant which is persisted in, and that confession only can have the blessed recompence here promised, which is the real and constant language of faith and love.

    The pure Religion of God and his Christ is worth every thing; all who believe the truth of it, will come up to the price, and make every thing else yield to it. Christ will lead us through sufferings, to glory with him.

    Those are best prepared for the life to come, that sit most unconnected to this present life. Though the kindness done to Christ's disciples be ever so small, yet if there be occasion for it, and ability to do no more, it shall be accepted. Christ does not say that they deserve a reward; for we cannot merit any thing from the hand of God; but they shall receive a reward from the free gift of God. Let us boldly confess Christ, and show love to him in all things.

    [end quote]

  62. It is not by Joseph Smith's Consent, you misinterpret the quote. It is that the things Joseph Smith brought forward; the Book of Mormon, the restoration of priesthood ordinances, no man can enter the Kingdom without them.

    So, you silent your own concern with the scripture you quoted. Jesus Christ called Joseph Smith to be a Prophet; therefore, one must accept and follow the things Jesus Christ revealed to Joseph Smith or they cannot come to the father because coming through the things Joseph Smith revealed is coming through the Savior Jesus Christ.

    Kent, you can choose not to believe that Jesus Christ restored his true church to the earth through Joseph Smith, but you must agree that logic dictates that if you knew Jesus Christ worked through Joseph Smith, then you would have to agree that accepting the things Joseph Smith taught would be accepting Jesus Christ and thereby fulfilling John 14:6 as well as Mosiah 3:17:

    "And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent."

    In fact, such a claim should be one you would expect from a church which declares to the world that they are led and directed by Jesus Christ Himself. If such a claim was not made, logic would then dictate that no one needs the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because they are not claiming to have the one true authority to act in the name of God.

    We are indeed claiming to have the one true authority to act in the name of God, and so our claim that no man can enter the Kingdom of God without accepting the truths revealed to Joseph Smith by Jesus Christ is logically the same as Christ himself saying:

    “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)

  63. Posted by: Leah on May 1, 2012 at 10:51 am

    “The gospel is simple and plain, and it will always be so.”

    I agree, the gospel means “good news.” Brian can you tell us what the “gospel” is? What is the good news of Mormonism? If I was not a member and I wanted to hear your gospel and be saved, what would you tell me the good news was?

    Leah,

    I would tell you that the "Good News" is that Jesus Christ restored His true church to the earth through Joseph Smith, that Joseph was led and directed to bring forth an ancient volume of Scripture which stands as an additional testimony of Jesus Christ, and that the authority to act in the name of God (Priesthood) is on the earth again and we are led by Jesus Christ Himself through Prophets today.

    That with these simple truths we can learn of our Savior Jesus Christ and become like Him through His eternal Sacrifice on our behalf and live fulfilling and happy lives blessed by the constant companionship of our Savior Jesus Christ.

  64. Ok, that is not what Paul says the gospel is, but moving on…

    Say I am dying, I've been shot, you are there with me. I only have a few minutes to live. I beg you to tell me what I need to do to go to heaven and live with God and be saved. I only have a few minutes, and I am desperately needing hope that I will see God in heaven when I die…what will you tell me I need to do?

    I'm serious, this scenario could happen in real life.

  65. Brian said, "I would tell you that the “Good News” is that Jesus Christ restored His true church to the earth through Joseph Smith, that Joseph was led and directed to bring forth an ancient volume of Scripture which stands as an additional testimony of Jesus Christ, and that the authority to act in the name of God (Priesthood) is on the earth again and we are led by Jesus Christ Himself through Prophets today."

    That isn't the gospel at all! How do I know this is the case? Because the Bible says the gospel is "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day."

    The gospel is all about what Jesus did to save us, sinners who can never save ourselves.

    The gospel is not at all about "that Jesus Christ restored His true church to the earth through Joseph Smith," it is not about "that Joseph was led and directed to bring forth an ancient volume of Scripture which stands as an additional testimony of Jesus Christ," it is not about "that the authority to act in the name of God (Priesthood) is on the earth again, " and it is not about "being led by Jesus Christ Himself through Prophets today."

    Directly below is the gospel (good news) that I have been given and it is the gospel that I pass on to other people.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    1 Moreover, brethren, I DECLARE TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES

    Mormons, it is not a matter of interpretation as clearly, as shown above, the Bible itself says what the gospel is.

  66. Kent: You are spot on, that is the gospel of Jesus Christ, God's word says so.

    BUT! I wanted Brian to tell me how HIS gospel, the gospel of Mormonism, the one he just stated about the restored church, would save a dying man and put him on the path of salvation within minutes?? What would I need to do, when I'm lying there bleeding with only minutes left, to go to heaven and be with God? Brian what would you tell me? I don't think the news of an ancient record, priesthood, and prophets being on the earth thanks to Joseph Smith would do much of anything for the destination of my soul…how would you answer Brian?

  67. Brian said, "It is not by Joseph Smith’s Consent, you misinterpret the quote. It is that the things Joseph Smith brought forward; the Book of Mormon, the restoration of priesthood ordinances, no man can enter the Kingdom without them."

    I misinterpreted nothing as your prophet, Brigham Young, said we can't be in the mansion where God and Christ are without Joseph Smith's consent.

    "…no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are – I with you and you with me…I cannot go there without his consent…He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven." October 9, 1859, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 289

    I choose to reject Joseph Smith having any say so in my eternal destiny but I am in safe hands as my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ says He is the only way to our father in heaven!

    John 14:6

    “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

    John 14:6 does not say, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me and with Joseph Smith's consent”

    It doesn't say this because Smith has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone's eternal destiny. Besides, I am sure he isn't really thinking about anyone else's savaltion as he is likely too busy reaping all the falsehood he sowed in his lifetime.

  68. Leah,

    You and I have a different view of what "Saved" means. So in answer to your seconds to live question, I already know you are returning to your savior Jesus Christ, because you believe. We differ in beliefs at that point though.

    I believe that all men can be saved by believing in Jesus Christ and accepting His sacrifice, that is plain and simple in the Bible and Book of Mormon, but to live eternally with Christ and Heavenly Father, that is where our beliefs differ because we believe in the ordinances restored through Joseph Smith and in enduring to the end.

    So on to the concern of the "Gospel," I am preaching the same gospel as you guys, straight from the scriptures. It has always been all about Jesus Christ and always will be. The problem is that anyone in the world can claim to be working salvation in the name of Jesus Christ, but you cannot buy that authority nor learn it in a university somewhere studying the bible.

    "Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

    And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

    Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."

    Acts 8:17-20

    So I will stand by my declaration that in order to receive the true unadulterated gospel of Jesus Christ, one must receive it from one in authority to preach it. It is all well and fine to share the message of Jesus Christ to the world, but in order to true bring people unto Christ you must have His authority to do so.

    "And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

    Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

    When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

    Acts 19:3-6

    Again, you can choose to believe as you wish, but you must see the necessity of such a declaration. If Jesus Christ did indeed call Joseph Smith to be a Prophet and did restore His authority to the earth (after a period when it was taken away after His death and that of the Apostles) then Joseph indeed was required by Jesus Christ to make such a claim. And we are then required to accept the Prophet Joseph Smith's claims that the ordinances revealed through him must be completed in order to live eternally with Jesus Christ.

    To proclaim to the world that authority does not matter in anyway is to make a proclamation of man and not of God. If those Biblical individuals had to be baptized again under the right authority then surely there is; first, a need for baptism, and second, a need for the authority of God to officiate in such an ordinance. Such authority exists on the earth today and that was Joseph Smith's proclamation and that is my proclamation.

  69. It was a hypothetical question with me (or an unknown person) that's an unbeliever. I was shot and dying and only had minutes to live. I'm begging you to tell me what to do that I may live with God in heaven when I die. I don't want to die in my sin and go to hell. The destination of my soul is at stake, what would you tell a non member, unbelieving person in this situation? I thought I made that clear, sorry if I did not.

  70. The only thing I could gather from above is that you'd tell me we have different ideas of what "saved" is, and that to live with God I must "believe in the ordinances restored to Joseph Smith and endure to the end." The end is very near for me Brian, an unbeliever in her sin. What can you tell me as a member of Jesus' one true church on earth that will change the destination of my soul? What do I need to do?

  71. Brian, yes we have a different view on what saved means. I believe saved means eternal life in the mansion where God is but without ever being exalted as gods ourselves. saved=eternal life=everlasting life so saved doesn't just mean living in the after life with maybe being with Heavenly Father if we are worthy enough.

    I believe that the idea that people go to any lower level of heaven is dangerous as if people are not perfectly sinless in God's eyes it makes them unbelievers and if they die in their sins they have their part in the lake of fire. But the good news, the gospel, is that Jesus is perfect and our complete faith in Him and what He did on the cross 2000 years makes us perfect in God's eyes but it has to be all about what He did and not at all about what we do.

    John 3:14-16

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

    John 5:10-13

    10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 AND THIS IS THE TESTIMONY: THAT GOD HAS GIVEN US ETERNAL LIFE, AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 THESE THINGS I HAVE WRITTEN TO YOU WHO BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD, THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

    The reason I believe especially that unbelievers don't go to any so called telestial kingdom, which is better than anything here on earth, is because in John 3 it says that unbelievers are condemned and it does not say they are given any glory. Also, in Revelation 21 it says that the unbelieving have their part in the lake of fire and it doesn't say they go to any lower level of heaven. So the options are either heaven with God forever or the lake of fire forever.

    John 3:18

    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

  72. Brian, one more thing, you seem to repeat a variation to a typical Mormon testimony as your answers to anything we say as in that 1. you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that he restored the priesthood 2. you believe the Book of Mormon is true 3. you believe that the Mormon Church is true and that it is the restored church on earth.

    Here is my testimony, notice how my faith doesn't focus on whether any man is a prophet or for that matter any church either as my testimony is all about Jesus Christ.

    My testimony:

    I believe with all my heart that Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God, that He is Lord, and that died 2000 years ago and rose again on the third day to save me, a sinner who can never save myself.

    Brian or other Mormons, doesn't it seem like something is missing from your testimonies if the focus is about Smith, your church, or the Book of Mormon and the focus isn't on Jesus Himself?

  73. Kent, I'll include here for you an earlier post of mine to help you understand my beliefs:

    "I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ only because Jesus Christ fuels my daily life. No man tells me how to believe and feel. I would have left long ago if I did not receive personal witnesses of the truth and divinity of Jesus Christ and His church almost daily.

    It is not about believing in Christ because I hear it from the Bible or the Book of Mormon or any person. It is about how I feel about Jesus Christ personally. I believe in Jesus Christ because I know He is there and He changes my life daily. The Doctrine of Christ is not about seeing or reading cold hard facts to believe in Him, it is about giving up all that we have and are to follow Him. That type of conversion to Christ happens in the heart.

    “Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:” (Isaiah 29:13)

    Say what you wish about me or my beliefs, but my conversion to my Savior Jesus Christ is rooted deep within my heart and will never be removed."

    Kent, the reason we focus on Joseph Smith and His work is because one must understand what Joseph Smith did in order to fully come unto their Savior Jesus Christ.

    If one is to believe in the love and mercy of an unchanging God, then why can people believe He would not have a Prophet on the earth to lead and guide His followers. Christ has always revealed His commandments through a Prophet (Amos 3:7) and I believe He always will.

    That is what is so important. People throughout all time could believe in Jesus Christ, but if they didn't listen to His Prophets, there was often a severe consequence.

  74. My testimony:

    I believe with all my heart that Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God, that He is Lord, and that died 2000 years ago and rose again on the third day to save me, a sinner who can never save myself.

    Ronnie

  75. Ronnie, great, you qualify for eternal life if you truly believe that it is all about that Jesus died in your place, a sinner who cannot ever save himself, and that it is not after all you can do, I need to clairify this as, as Brian pointed out, we mean diffferent things when we say we are saved.

    If you truly believe it is all about Jesus, then if you died this moment, you would qualify to be with Heavenly Father forever! You wouldn't even need to be temple worthy or ever need to progress to be there.

    Leah, since you are an ex Mormon, would anyone get up at a testimony meeting and say what I said my testimony is and what Ronnie repeated here and leave it at that and not say anything about Joseph Smith being a prophet of God, the Book of Mormon is true, the Mormon Church is true, etc?

    I have asked Mormon missonaries what their testimony is and they usually say the about things about Smith, the BOM, and the church and they say they asked God if it is true and they got the feeling from the Holy Spirit in their hearts that it is so but I haven't had one say it is about Jesus and what He did on the cross.

  76. Leah, if I met someone who is dying I would tell him or her, if I could, that Jesus died for them so that they could go to heaven and if he or she believes that, they will go to heaven but if I couldn't explain that much, I would tell them to call on the name of the Lord to save him or her.

    Brian, it is true we need to believe in our hearts but nothing needed to be restored by Joseph Smith. You say the gospel is simple but then you complicate it by adding all the Smith stuff on as, I stated before, the Bible says in 1 Corinthian 15 that the gospel is that Jesus died and rose again on the third day so this knowledge was never lost.

    Corinthians 15:1-4

    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    This is how we believe, what we must do to be saved:

    Acts 16:30-34

    30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

    31 So they said, “BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND YOU WILL BE SAVED, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THE LORD JESUS AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD HAS RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, YOU WILL BE SAVED. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.”

  77. I need to clairify my testimony

    I believe with all my heart that Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God, that He is Lord, that He died on the cross 2000 years ago in my place so I don't have to pay the penalty I deserve for my sins to save me, a sinner who can never save myself, and that He rose again on the third day.

  78. Kent: No, absolutely not have I ever heard anyone at fast and testimony meeting give just a testimony of Jesus. NEVER. In fact I just went over a month ago and the testimonies are all the same…church, joseph, jesus, BOM. I have never heard a testimony on the truth of the Bible either. According to the missionaries that just came over last week looking for me by name, I am still on the records even after 2 attempts at removing my name. So technically, I am still a MEMBER of the LDS church! How's that to you who call me anti-Mormon?? I'm a anti-Mormon Mormon apparently :)

    Brian: are you not going to answer my question? Kent answered it, but I already knew what good news (gospel) a Christian would share…would you be able to tell me (as an unbeliever) any good news with minutes left? Can I see God when I die?

  79. Brian: I also need to point out that the gospel you shared and the gospel according to the Bible are completely different! You can not argue that you "share the same gospel" as Kent and I do, at least you can't and keep any credibility. Here, I will list them here together so you can see the difference:

    Brian's gospel of Mormonism: "I would tell you that the “Good News” is that Jesus Christ restored His true church to the earth through Joseph Smith, that Joseph was led and directed to bring forth an ancient volume of Scripture which stands as an additional testimony of Jesus Christ, and that the authority to act in the name of God (Priesthood) is on the earth again and we are led by Jesus Christ Himself through Prophets today. That with these simple truths we can learn of our Savior Jesus Christ and become like Him through His eternal Sacrifice on our behalf and live fulfilling and happy lives blessed by the constant companionship of our Savior Jesus Christ."

    The gospel according to the Bible (as put by Kent):1 Corinthians 15:1-4: 1 Moreover, brethren, I DECLARE TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES

    I don't see how you can logically argue that you are "preaching the same gospel as you guys." Sorry, anyone can read for themselves that these are NOT the same gospels. The gospel of the Bible is the good news, the blessed assurance, our hope in Jesus by which we are saved! It's ALL about Jesus. Jesus saves, even those on their death beds like the thief on the cross. Jesus gave him hope in the last minutes of his life! The thief would be with JESUS in paradise!

    The gospel you speak of has no bearing on the eternity of one's soul, especially one with only minutes to live…it speaks of a church, a book, and a prophet with a little Jesus thrown in for good measure. You still haven't answered what that would do for me with only minutes to live??

  80. One of the most dangerous Mormon doctrines is that even most unbelievers will go to a lower kingdom of glory called the telestial kingdom but the Bible says that they shall not see life, the wrath of God abides on him, they are condemned, and they have their part in the lake of fire.

    Doesn't sound like any kind of glorious future better than anything on earth does it?

    John 3:36

    36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    John 3:18

    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

  81. If it is isn't clear, the reason I believe the Mormon doctrine of people going to at least a lower kingdom is dangerous, especially that unbelievers go to the telestial kingdom, is because if someone isn't worthy enough to go to the celestial kingdom, than they can be complacent and think it is not a big deal if they don't make it as at least they will have some level of glory.

    But it is a big deal as the Bible teaches that there are only two options, eternal life with Heavenly Father or having their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone. That is why it is crucial to point out that Mormons are heading down the wrong path as believing another gospel other than what the Bible teaches is the same as beng an unbeliever. People who follow a false gospel are crused and not given any level of glory and even angels, such as the angel Moroni, have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone .

    Galatians 1:8-9

    8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

    So believe another gospel below, a false gospel, directly below and be accursed:

    “I would tell you that the “Good News” is that Jesus Christ restored His true church to the earth through Joseph Smith, that Joseph was led and directed to bring forth an ancient volume of Scripture which stands as an additional testimony of Jesus Christ, and that the authority to act in the name of God (Priesthood) is on the earth again and we are led by Jesus Christ Himself through Prophets today. That with these simple truths we can learn of our Savior Jesus Christ and become like Him through His eternal Sacrifice on our behalf and live fulfilling and happy lives blessed by the constant companionship of our Savior Jesus Christ.”

    OR

    Believe the true gospel of the Bible, directly below and have eternal life:

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    1 Moreover, brethren, I DECLARE TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES

    Remember, SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE. We get eternal life by believing in Christ, what He did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day, and you can know for sure now, not later, that you will be with Heavenly Father forever and yes it is that simple.

  82. I really can't be any more clear with you guys.

    I am saying you are preaching the Gospel by the wrong authority and that the Prophet Joseph Smith was necessary to restore that correct authority. That is why we focus on preaching out of the Book of Mormon (another testament of Jesus Christ) and the restoration of Christ's church through Joseph Smith. It is the same Gospel, we just preach it by the right authority. So again to be clear, The good news is of Jesus Christ laying down his life for all of us to be able to come unto Him and be accepted into the Kingdom of God for eternity.

    Leah, if dying with minutes to live, the most important thing you could know is first of Jesus Christ suffering for your sins, second is to know that His authority has been restored to the earth and to know the first principles and ordinances of the gospel.

    "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost"

    4th Article of Faith

    If you believe that the thief on the cross's eternity was decided in that slight moment and all that was req

  83. *required was to simply believe, then I must say this life was pretty easy because I was saved at age 8 when I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

    I believe it takes more than that, and I believe that because I have accepted Jesus Christ's Modern Day work through His Prophets.

  84. So are you saying you would tell me too bad, I cannot live with God in heaven because I didn't get baptized or believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? There is no hope for me? I didn't do any of the required ordinances so too bad?

    You see, that is not good news. That is not any blessed assurance, good news, or hope…why would Paul call the gospel all of these things if what you are saying is true? Sorry, it's a different gospel. Your "authority" is imaginary, you have no authority to help even a dying man. What good is your news when it can not even save a man's soul?

    The true gospel, the good news of Jesus, is that you can live with God in heaven when you die as long as you put your trust in the sacrifice that God provided…the ONLY way, truth, and life. It is finished! And anyone who believes will NOT perish, but have everlasting life. THAT is good news,especially to the lost with only minutes left who doesn't have time for all your rituals. It's called GRACE, it's a gift from God, NOT of works. GOOD news!

    It is what the Bible preaches Brian and you have accepted another gospel, one of a man who can do none of you any good. Smith is not the way, the truth, or the life. It's just Jesus! If you just read your Bible and hadn't ever looked at any Mormon literature, you would have reached the same beliefs also. When Smith added to God's word he changed it's message, a crime for which the Bible said one would be destroyed for. And he was…

  85. Leah, Brian's news (not good news) to the dying unbeliever is that the dying person will probably get to live in spirit prison for a period after he or she dies and then get to live in the telestial kingdom but be eternally seperated from God.

    However, the Bible says that as an unbeliever he or she is condemned, he or she shall not see life, the wrath of God abides on him or her, and he or she has his or her part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

    So no glory for him or her in some non existant telestial kingdom, just torment for eternity

    John 3:36

    36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    John 3:18

    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    Ironic, that since Joseph Smith used a seer stone to translate part of the Book of Mormon, he was indulging in sorcery so besides being accursed for teaching another gospel than that which is found in the Bible, the Bible says he will have his part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone as this is the fate of sorcerers.

  86. Brian, you don't believe the Bible that says unbelievers are condemned, that they shall not see life, the wrath of God is upon them, and they have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone?

    If so, is it because you believe that the following passages haven't been translated correctly? If so, show why you think they are not correct.

    Also, please don't say I am interpreting them incorrectly, which seems like a stock Mormon answer, as I am not stating my view of what they are saying, I am just stating what they are saying, other than I believe these words to be true.

    One more thing, there is no way the words below from the Bible could possibly be saying there is any level of glory for the unbeliever.

    John 3:18

    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 3:36

    36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

  87. Leah, we have done our part for Brian, we have presented the true gospel of Jesus Christ and it is up to him to believe it or not believe it.

    To other Mormons who read this, I truly believe you are taking a big chance by not following the gospel that is only found in the Bible. It is not about someone being a prophet, it is not about a particular church being true (but they do need to teach the true gospel), it is not about some other book other than the Bible being true, it is not about following a bunch of oridanance and rules, and it is not about some church leaders being the proper authority, etc.

    The gospel is only all about what Jesus did on the cross to pay the penalty we all deserve by dying and rising again on the third day to save us, sinners who cannot ever save ourselves, It is Jesus alone that saves us.

    Again, directly below is the gospel and it is not me saying this is the gospel it is the Bible itself, divinely imspired by God, that is saying it.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    1 Moreover, brethren, I DECLARE TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES

    Directly below is what we must do to be saved, we need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and it is not me saying it, it is the Bible, divinely imspired by God saying it:

    Acts 16:30-34

    30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

    31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

    We believe on the Lord Jesus Christ by confessing with our mouths the Lord Jesus and believing in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead. It is not me saying it, it is the Bible, divinely imspired by God saying it.

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    It is not about what you do, it is about what He did and it is finished by His work on the cross.

    Below is the work you need to do, believe in Him (Jesus) whom He (Heavenly Father) sent, Jesus Christ Himself said this! It is not me saying it.

    John 6:28-29

    28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    I hope and pray that someone here takes the time to read the above passages from the Bible and takes them to heart. You can know now this very moment, not later if you are worthy enough, that you can for sure be able to live with Heavenly Father forever!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE

    I have given all of the information that I needed to pass on, so for now, I won't be commenting here further.

  88. Wow, you guys just jumped right on me there.

    First of all, I am Saved, and I share the Good news of Jesus Christ. The only thing different here is that I proclaim to the world that the gospel must be preached by the Authority of Jesus Christ and one must be baptized by His Authority to receive Eternal life.

    I never said a dying man has no hope Leah. I said several times that if that dying man believes in Jesus Christ then he is already on a good start. I am saying that one must be baptized at one time or another to live eternally with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father. And yes, we believe death is not the end to ordinances.

    "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    John 3:5

    "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

    Mark 16:16

    "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Acts 2:38

    "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

    Acts 10:48

    "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

    Matt 28:19

    Go right at it guys rationalize these and other scriptures away that directly command us to be baptized in order to be saved.

    "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

    John 3:15

    So is Jesus recanting His earlier words in verse 5 saying that you don't need to be born of the water, all you need to do is believe. Or, more logically I presume, He is saying that the most rudimentary principle is first believing in Jesus Christ and then He will led you by His Spirit down into the waters of Baptism.

    Ask yourself if it is logical to assume that after just exerting enough effort to simply believe, you are then done with your entire purpose of coming to this world. I believe that this is a long journey that only begins upon us accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer.

    "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

    Hebrews 12:1

    "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain."

    1 Corinthians 9:24

    Let me leave you with one final sentence:

    Faith is an action verb.

  89. "If you just read your Bible and hadn’t ever looked at any Mormon literature, you would have reached the same beliefs also."

    Leah, I would never have reached such a conclusion that requires no effort on my part aside from simply believing. You openly mock the Apostles teachings in the Bible of Baptism and you do not understand why Jesus Christ Himself was Baptized, nor do you understand Jesus Christ's teachings of Baptism.

  90. I do not mock the Bible or the Apostles Brian, I read the word of God and know exactly what it says about being baptized. I love the way you try and speak to me authoritatively and tell me what I know of my own Lord and Savior, but you have absolutely no power or authority over me. I have been baptized, it is a part of following Jesus and showing publicly that I follow and obey my Savior. I have been born again of the Spirit which is the baptism Jesus said is required to see the kingdom of God. My faith has been put into action, I assure you.

    But for you to say that a person has to be baptized in order to live with God in heaven is unfounded. You have no biblical basis for that claim. Baptism of water does not save you, your belief (faith) does. Baptism was commanded to believers, but never does it say if you are not baptized you can't live with God. In fact, the Mark verse you quoted: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned” clearly says he that doesn't BELIEVE is damned! Not he that isn't baptized. It says he that believes and is baptized will be saved, if you don't BELIEVE you are damned. The baptism is not the requirement of salvation, it is an ACT of faith! I'd also like to point out it says DAMNED, not goes to a lower glory of heaven. Are you going to tell me that you think a believer who doesn't get the chance to be baptized is DAMNED? That's what it says Brian, not in telestial GLORY. Damned would never be used as a synonym for glory. So then you would have to tell the dying man "oops sorry, you weren't baptized so your damned to hell." Not much hope or good news in that.

    Also when Jesus said be born again, born of water and Spirit, he was speaking of being born the first time as babies to our mothers through "water" and being born AGAIN was by the Spirit. The baptism of the Spirit is the born again experience you need to see the Kingdom of God. You took the verse out of context, Jesus was clearly speaking to Nicodemus about our first birth as babies, which is why Nicodemus asks how he would get back into his mother's womb to be born again! Read the whole chapter in its context.

    You also said the dying person could not live with God, and that "logically" you'd have to work or do something other than "just believe" to get to live with God. Who's logic are you using, yours?? God doesn't work the way you would Brian, that's why it's easier for you to "work" towards your salvation than to just trust God at His word when He said HE would do the saving. What do you think you, a mere vapor in the wind, could offer God that would make you worthy of anything or make God owe you something?? God does not owe you anything Brian, now it is you who mock God if you suggest such a thing. God doesn't have to send you to heaven because of you got dunked in some water or paid a measly 10% to a church. You better make sure you are saved by His grace, that IS your only hope, because your works are but filthy rags in His sight. Grace through faith in Jesus, it's the way God prepared for you. Not the way YOU think it should be.

    I'm not trying to gang up on you Brian, I'm speaking to you because you are civil most of the time. Others on here, I won't mention any names (ahem, RONNIE, ahem) like to judge and damn, kind of a kill joy if you know what I mean. I was saddened today after speaking to my mom on the phone and she said "IF I see God when I die." IF! My mother has worked her entire life going to church, doing temple rituals, paying full tithe, listening to your prophets, and everything she is told to do by your institution and she still doesn't even know if she will live with God when she dies? My heart is broken for her, my mom and people like her are the reason I try and share the true GOOD news of the gospel with them, so they can trust God and take Him at His word and KNOW they will see God thanks to Jesus, not of their works! It's a free gift, from the Maker of the Universe…it shouldn't "logically" make any sense to us! That is why He is such an awesome, wonderful God and all praise be to Him because we don't deserve it!

  91. Also Kent posted many verses about being condemned and saved, which show the message of the Bible is clear when taken as a whole. You can cherry pick a verse here and there and try to twist it to mean whatever you want, but when taken in context the meaning is clear. Problems come from "interpretation" only by picking and choosing a verse here and there. When you read all of those verses at a whole, it makes sense. I will just repost one:

    John 6:28-29

    28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    Over and over we are told that faith is what we need to have to be saved. Baptism is not a requirement for salvation, it is something believers are to do in obedience, but if you die before getting a chance it does not send you out of the presence of God, as long as you are covered by the blood of Jesus through belief and acceptance of His sacrifice to save you!

  92. I have to try to get an answer that I asked here on this thread that, so far, no one has answered.

    I know it is a safe bet that none of the Mormons who post here think my friend, a white person who married a black person, should be put to death on the spot or put to death at all but why not since 1. Brigham Young said that the white person should be put to death on the spot 2. that it is God's law and 3. this will always be so?

    Brigham Young, “The Persecutions of the Saints, etc.,” (8 March 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:111

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

    After all, Young was supposed to be a prophet of God and as a prophet he was claiming to speak for God and Mormons are supposed to believe what their prophets say, aren't they?

    Could it be that Brigham Young really wasn't a prophet of God at all, that he was just stating a racist view that was prevelent during his own time?

    So what Young said really isn't God's law at all and that it should never ever be so that white people who mix with black people should ever put to death on the spot or at any time!

    By the way, you can't compare it to any old testament example of when God said for Israel to wipe out an entire people as that was for that time only and God didn't say it would always be so as Young did about race mixers being killed on the spot.

  93. I'm glad you added in the part about the OT Law, because I find with these types of questions they never get answered except by Mormons pointing out things in OT times that were similar. I'd also like to add that Brigham Young was saying those things after Jesus came and fulfilled the OT Law anyways, and Young said those things in "this dispensation" after Jesus' coming…

  94. Leah, I wasn't actually talking about the law but about specific occasions when God said to wipe out an entire people often when those people were doing really evil stuff like human sacrifices but when He commanded Israel to do so, it was just for those specific situations only. But any time He did so, it wasn't for all time, that it would always be so, as Brigham Young said about killing white people who mix with black people.

    But you are right, Young made his so called command after Jesus did away with the death penalty for a multitude of sins such as adultery, homosexuality, and even for children being diobedient, etc.

    I didn't intend to keep posting here for now as I want to take a break from doing so but every time I read the horrible comments about killing race mixers made by Brigham Young I think of my friend who is white who married a black person.

    I can't for the life of me see how anyone is this day and age could really believe that such a man could possibly be speaking for God.

    And no, I didn't take anything out of context as Young really said those things.

    Again Young said below:

    Brigham Young, “The Persecutions of the Saints, etc.,” (8 March 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:111

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

  95. Leah,

    Perhaps it is you that is wrong, perhaps you have misinterpreted the Bible and been baptized by one who has claimed to have his authority from God and not been given the authority by God. You can say I have misinterpreted the Bible, but I can say the same of you.

    The question you have to ask yourself is whether or not you believe that you, a sinner, can save yourself by reading the Bible and magically being saved by its words. Words can only inspire us to act in order to gain salvation. They cannot bestow the authority to baptize nor give a sinner an acceptance into the Kingdom of God.

    Kent and Leah, believe as you wish, I can't change your minds or help you see the correct teachings of the Bible. I can only have a hope that your love for your Savior Jesus Christ will lead you to faithfully step out of your comfort zone and see what blessings are waiting for you.

    Mormon love and well wishes.

  96. I just have to make, for now, just one more comment and then I really have to take a break from this as this is getting weary.

    The reason I bring up things like Brigham Young's tirade against people who marry outside of their race, namely that white people who marry black people should be killed on the spot, is not to attack the Mormon Church but it is to show how this church is really about putting one's faith in men, that people like Joseph Smith and Young are prophets of God, instead of putting their faith in Christ alone which is what a true Christian church is supposed to be all about.

    Mormons, ever wonder about why you have to explain wacky statements like Young's stance on race mixing and his Adam God doctrine that really make no sense?

    Well it is because men like Brigham Young were not prophets of God at all and it really isn't about someone being a prophet of God, about one particular church being true (although churches have to teach the true gospel), and it is not about some other book besides the Bible being true (Book of Mormon).

    Islam is based on their prophet Mohammed being a prophet of God and it is not about faith in Christ sound familiar? I should as we can't base a religion on whether one key prophet is true be it Mohammed or Joseph Smith.

    A prominent Mormon Leader, Joseph Fielding Smith even said that Mormonism falls apart if Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet of God.

    “Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver who wilfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrine shown to be false.” Joseph Fielding Smith

    Still no answer as to why Mormons don't believe that my friend, a white person who married a black person should be killed on the spot, which I am sure they don't believe, but that their prophet B. Young said should be the case.

    Because after all, if he was a prophet of God and he stated he was speaking God's law that will always be so, shouldn't you believe what your prophet said?

    I believe the reason is, is because he wasn't a prophet of God and he wasn't speaking God's law and no one today in their right mind would advocate killing my white friend for marrying a black person.

    Again, one last time for now, I will state what Brigham Young said.

    Brigham Young, “The Persecutions of the Saints, etc.,” (8 March 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:111

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

  97. "The question you have to ask yourself is whether or not you believe that you, a sinner, can save yourself "

    Ummm…the whole Christian faith is based on the fact that we CAN'T save ourselves, and that is why we put all of our trust and faith in Jesus to save us. It's his work on the cross and by his grace that we are saved, not of ourselves. Jesus saves me, I have NOTHING to do with it. Interesting you would even say that, being that it is Mormons who believe they are working toward their own salvation. That comment didn't make any sense. It has nothing to do with magically reading anything…it's faith Brian. Faith. The Bible says so over and over again, old and new testament. It is Mormons who have chosen not to believe it and work towards their salvation instead. (and in "your own salvation" I of course mean working to get where God is)

  98. Below is the contrast between the Mormon gospel and the true gospel of the Bible and yes they are different. So it is either about following a bunch of laws and ordinances, what we do, or it is about what Jesus Christ did on the cross by dying and rising again on the third day to save us, sinners who can never ever save ourselves.

    “Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.”

    Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6

    OR

    Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    So the Mormon Church does teach a different gospel warned about in Galatians 1 than what is taught in the Bible.

    Galatians 1:8-9

    8 BUT EVEN IF WE, OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL TO YOU THAN WHAT WE HAVE PREACHED TO YOU, LET HIM BE ACCURSED. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  99. Thanks Kent, the Bible is clear and it is not a matter of "interpretation." We can see that also by Brian's definition of what the "gospel" is, it is NOT the same gospel of Christianity. Kimball also makes it clear that Christians and Mormons do not share the same gospel at all. For anyone to say they are the same is not being logical. Why a Mormon would constantly try and associate themselves as "Christians" or as having the same gospel as Christians is beyond me anyway, don't Mormon think we are all corrupt and an abomination? Why the sudden latching on to Christianity? Early Mormon leaders did NO such thing, in fact they wanted to distance themselves from mainstream Christianity. Is it only to try and gain acceptance and validity? Because any sane person can read the just the definitions of their gospels and see plainly that they are different.

  100. Yes Leah, Jesus Christ is not a road map he is the way!

    John 14:6

    6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

    Note: SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE! is not part of Galatians 1:8-9. This is something I am ending all my posts here with and I forgot to press enter on my last post.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  101. Mormonism is the Holy Bible gospel restored. That's all there is to that. Saying otherwise does not bend the truth. Judaizing Christianity is the 'other' gospel Saint Paul warned Christians about. Mormonism is not equivalent to Judaizing. Modern Christianity has many heresis. The loudest one is that you can hate other Christians and bear against them false witness.

    WHOSOEVER BELEVETH IN ME HAS ETERNAL LIFE.

  102. Edwin, no one is hating anyone and no one is making any personal attacks or bearing false witness here as being critical of a belief system is not false witness again a person or persons.

    The last time I checked the name Kent isn't in the Bible so it isn't me that is saying what the gospel is it is me passing on what the word of God, the Bible, says is the gospel and contrasting it with what Spencer W. Kimball said the gospel is.

    Again, the Bible says the gospel is the following:

    Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    While former Mormon president Spencer W. Kimball said the gospel is the following:

    “Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.”

    Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6

    The Bible doesn't say that judaizing Christianity is the only false gospel there is it says if anyone preaches any other gospel, not the only false gospel , let him be accursed.

    Galatians 1:8-9

    8 BUT EVEN IF WE, OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL TO YOU THAN WHAT WE HAVE PREACHED TO YOU, LET HIM BE ACCURSED. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

    Leah, I find it curious that it seems a recurring response from Mormons is that when we are critical of what the Mormon Church teaches, that often Mormons see it as a personal attack on themselves.

    While, for example, most of the time if someone is critical of my Christian beliefs, say an atheist says that God doesn't exist and that the Bible is a bunch of fairy tales, I don't take it as a personal attack on me as a person and I merely think the person is wrong.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  103. Edwin said, "WHOSOEVER BELEVETH IN ME HAS ETERNAL LIFE."

    Great Edwin, it means if you believe in him you don't have to be temple worthy, you don't have to perform a bunch of religious rituals, you don't have to follow a bunch of laws and ordinances, and you don't have to ever progress to be in the mansion where God is as your place there is secure!

    That is what we have been saying all along.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  104. Edwin, one more thing, if you truly have put your faith alone in what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day and not in anything you do, you will do good works not to contribute to your salvation but because you are saved by what He did.

    That doesn't mean we have a license to sin and if someone is still living a sinful lifestyle, that in itself is evidence that a person isn't really a true believer in Christ.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  105. Mormons consider that in the following list of sins in Revelation 21 we all fit at least some of them to varying degrees, and this side of heaven we will not be able to, if we are honest with ourselves and God, be able to conquer them completely and if we are in any of these sins, will have our part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

    Well if anyone thinks this isn't the case then consider if they have ever been angry with someone for, say, cutting them off on the freeway. Well in most of the cases the person didn't do it on purpose so that would mean that we have been angry at someone without a cause and Jesus said, "but I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment." So Jesus compares that would being a murderer of that person in our hearts.

    Also, especially men, can any of us truly say we never lust after anyone and that we haven't repeated that sin ?

    Well would mean we are still in that sin but we only have this liftime to get it right as the Bible doesn't teach that we have a chance in the afterlife.

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    Hebrews 9:27

    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

    But the good news, the true gospel of the Bible, is Jesus took all of our sins upon Himself when He died on the cross in our place to take the punishment we all deserve and by His rising again on the third day so if we have complete faith in what He did and not in what we do, then God will remember all of our sins no more!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  106. I must say Kent that you certainly don't give up, but I'm pretty sure at this point your beating a dead horse. Let's just come to a conclusion here.

    You Kent, believe the Gospel is fully contained within the Bible and that God has ceased revealing His sacred truths to Prophets. You believe all we need is the Bible and faith in its teachings.

    I and other Mormons do not believe the Bible is all we need, I believe in keeping the commandments and following the direction of the mouth piece of God or the Prophets.

    We hold two different points of view, but if I might leave you with our similarities. Much like a student can learn the field of math from one textbook so can a Christian learn Christianity from the Bible. We know there is much more to the study of math than what can be contained in one textbook, so it is my belief that there is much more to the field of Christianity than what is contained in the Bible. I believe inspired men everywhere have been led by God to write down those inspirations that can expand our understandings and help us to become more like our Savior Jesus Christ.

    I believe, ". . . every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God." (Moroni 7:13)

    Kent, I am not content with stopping my thirst for knowledge and understanding at the Bible, I will seek out revelation and inspiration all the days of my life, and I thank my Heavenly Father everyday that I have found a never ending flow of revelation and inspiration and I draw nearer and nearer to God each day thanks to the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the earth and the divine direction from Jesus Christ through His modern day Prophets.

    The Bible is the word of God, I just contend that it is not the only word of God. I work everyday to help others see that God has not ceased speaking to His Children and revealing His sacred truths which are received line upon line and precept upon precept.

    Kent, it is my prayer for you and all others that you will never stop progressing in the word of God. There is most certainly much more to learn than what is contained in the Bible.

  107. Brian you can believe whatever you want, that's fine, but your beliefs above show you are not a Christian, they make you a Mormon. Those who belong to the faith of Christianity DO believe the Bible to be the only Word of God. We do not believe the whole point is to "help us become more like our Savior Jesus Christ," that is not the gospel of Christianity. While Christians do want to follow Jesus in obedience, the gospel (good news) is that God sent His son to die for us taking on our sins so that those who believe on Him will not perish but have eternal life. The Mormon gospel you shared is not the gospel of the Bible. So go ahead and believe what you want, but you are not subscribing to the gospel of Christianity. You are a Mormon and subscribe to Mormonism.

    There are similarities in lots of faiths, but it does not make them the same thing. We are to proclaim the true gospel of Jesus. Jesus did not focus on similarities and join hands with the Pharisees, he corrected them in their error. He loved them by showing them how to get eternal life, if He just let them believe what they wanted because then they would all get along, they would go to hell and that is not very loving now is it? We Christians could join hands with Mormons and sing cumbayah and pretend we are all the same, but how loving would that be to let you go into everlasting torment by placing your trust in a false religion? We must share it with you because Jesus said too, and God must open your eyes and save you.

    Kent has shown clearly that the gospels presented by the Bible and by Mormonism are 2 DIFFERENT gospels. While you have the choice to believe whatever you want, it doesn't make it true. God will still be God and you will still have to answer to Him. We can set up idols to worship of anything, even Jesus. When you say you believe in Jesus, but say he was different than how he revealed himself to be, you have now set up an idol of Jesus and he is not the true Jesus of the Bible or of Christianity. It's Mormon Jesus, and he cannot save you. Mormon gospel cannot save you. Only the One true God can, and He has made it simple. GOOD news, not lists of rules, ordinances, and works. Jesus said the work the Father wants you to do is "believe on the one whom He has sent." Christ (God's Messiah) came, died for us, and was resurrected on the 3rd day so to give life to all who believe. That is the true gospel! Believe it or not, it's God's gospel. The Bible says so.

  108. Here is an excellent page for you to look at the idols of Jesus we can create. God MUST be worshiped in Spirit AND in TRUTH. Make sure you have the right Jesus, because by no other name under heaven can we be saved!

    http://defendingcontending.com/2010/03/14/which-j

  109. The gospel of Jesus saves, it is the good news, hope, blessed ASSURANCE! Brian also showed above that the Mormon gospel offers NO hope and NO assurance to a dying man with minutes left to live. But the true gospel of Jesus can be shared with a dying man and assure him he will be with God when he dies, no matter what type of life he lived! It has nothing to do with works and EVERYTHING to do with the shed blood of Jesus! It's what Jesus offered to the thief on the cross, he only had to believe who Jesus really was and he would be with Jesus in paradise! It's THAT simple. Jesus said so!

    Side note: Muslims believe in the bible and believe Jesus was a prophet of God. Does that make them Christian? NOPE! To be Christian you must subscribe to the beliefs of Christianity: who God is, who Jesus is, and the authority of His Word the Bible, and how you obtain salvation. If you think Jesus was just a prophet or the spirit brother of satan and a created being, you have to do works to get to heaven, and God was once a man you're not a Christian. 1 billion+ Christians in the world say so.

  110. Brian said, "The Bible is the word of God, I just contend that it is not the only word of God. I work everyday to help others see that God has not ceased speaking to His Children and revealing His sacred truths which are received line upon line and precept upon precept."

    But officially the Mormon Church's stance is that "the Bible is the word of God as far as it has been translated correctly," so your church's official stance is that, in effect, we can't trust what it says. Because if your church did trust what it says, but that it was incomplete, then your church would have said so and not bring into question that the Bible isn't translated correctly.

    On the other hand, if the Bible is complete, it has been translated correctly, and if the gospel is all about Jesus dying for our sins in our place to save sinners who can never save ourselves and nothing else, then if people reject the gospel they risk having their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

    Brian, I would like you to see what I and others see but my posts are not just directed to you but to other Mormons who may be questioning what they are being taught.

    But to them and you (also, I hope), consider that Jesus said, "“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

    My savior Jesus did not say we need Joseph Smith's consent to be with Heavenly Father, He did not say the Mormon Church has to be true, He did not say the Book of Mormon has to be true, and He did not say that Joseph Smith has to be a prophet of God. If it was so, then He would have said it is so.

    He said he is the way, the truth, and the life and all that other stuff, even the Mormon temple, its ordinances and rituals, is not needed.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  111. Leah said, "Side note: Muslims believe in the bible and believe Jesus was a prophet of God. Does that make them Christian? NOPE! To be Christian you must subscribe to the beliefs of Christianity: who God is, who Jesus is, and the authority of His Word the Bible, and how you obtain salvation. If you think Jesus was just a prophet or the spirit brother of satan and a created being, you have to do works to get to heaven, and God was once a man you’re not a Christian. 1 billion+ Christians in the world say so."

    Another thing about Islam. Islam stands or falls on whether their prophet, in this case Mohammad, was a prophet of God. Sound familiar? It should because if Mohammad wasn't a prophet of God, then Islam is not true same with Joseph Smith regarding Mormonism.

    "Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false…"

    (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation," vol. 1 pp 188-189.)

    If the Mormon Church is a Christian Church, then shouldn't it be about Jesus Christ and not on whether some prophet was a prophet of God or not?

  112. “Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false…”

    (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation,” vol. 1 pp 188-189.)

    Of course another possibility is that Smith didn't set out to deceive others, that he really believed what he was teaching but that he was deceived by Satan. But even so, if he wasn't a prophet of God, then the Mormon Church isn't true.

    Again it should be all about Jesus Christ and not about a prophet, be it Mohammad or Joseph Smith, being a prophet of God.

  113. Mormons know about Jesus Christ and for Mormons the Gospel of Jesus Christ IS about Jesus.

    However, we are hemmed in by mean spirited anti-Mormons that operate under the same spirit that caused the scribes and pharisees to seek the death of Jesus.

    Too often, it is the irate anti-Mormon brigade that sets the agenda for our interchanges. Then they have the temerity to complain that we are talking about the very subjects they raise and not Jesus.

    If you want to talk about Jesus, then talk about Jesus. We are ready for you.

    As to what someone said about Muslims and the Bible, while some parts of the Qur'an are borrowed from the Bible, there are many differences in iot also, and no Muslim accepts the Bible as it stands.

    Now we will see the responses from Anti-Mormons complaining that they have been accurately described again and wanting to stretch the discussion in several directions at once.

    It is noteworthy that the anti-Mormons that post here are too insecure to use their names and to identify which one of the 30,000 competing cults of traditional or new age Christianity they support.

    Of what are they scared?

    Specious arguments are one of the marks of minimalist Christians whose faith is insufficient to allow them to stand up and be counted. I have often been surprised and disappointed by the low quality and the petulance and [puerility of the childish attacks I read here.

    I expect I shall just have to get used to disappointment and watch them swing into action again. However, I am inclined to ask them, "Is that all you, got?" I guess it is.

  114. The question of whether God ever called and does yet call prophets is significant. it won't fade away because it scares you.

    Help them, Lord!

  115. Kent – this is just for you.

    It is possible to live forever outside the presence of God, so that everlasting life is not synonymous with salvation.

    The statement that the LDS Church says that the Bible cannot be trusted is a complete nonsense. if you know of any case examples where Mormons do not accept what the Bible says, and if you cann illuminate your false statement, or at least try to do so by presenting one or ten of these instances then we shall have some meat on the bonme and we can sinkl our teeth into it. Otherwise, the statement is a nonsense.

    It is as if you are saying that your Christian cult believes the Bible to be the word of God even when it is not translated correctly.

    For example, when steel is mentioned in the Old Testament. Is 'STEEL' an incorrect translation or not? If it is a wrong translation, are you forced by your pastor to believe it is true even though you know, or should know, that it is incorrect?

    Can you answer directly without wriggling? :)

  116. Kent wrote:

    Of course another possibility is that Smith didn't set out to deceive others, that he really believed what he was teaching but that he was deceived by Satan. But even so, if he wasn't a prophet of God, then the Mormon Church isn't true.

    Then, Kent wrote, that it wasn't about prophets. Well, Kent, if it isn't why did YOU raise the question of Prophets in the first place?

    :(

  117. But, if he was a prophet of God then the Mormon Church IS true.

    That's your logic, Kent.

    Is that what you really believe?

    Shall we ask whether St Paul really was an apostle or not? What if he wasn't? Is that curtains for your cult?

  118. Ronnie said, "But, if he was a prophet of God then the Mormon Church IS true.

    That’s your logic, Kent.

    Is that what you really believe?

    Shall we ask whether St Paul really was an apostle or not? What if he wasn’t? Is that curtains for your cult?"

    Brian, it isn't about Paul being a apostle, even though he testifies to who Jesus is and what He did to save us, as it is all about Jesus and nothing else.

    The Bible doesn't testify that Jesus Christ is a created being, merely our elder brother who is also the spirit brother of Satan whose salvation plan was accepted over His brother Satan's plan as Satan never had a salvation plan as he is the father of all lies.

    The Bible does testify that Jesus has always been God, even when he walked this earth in order to be the perfect sacrifice to take the punishment we all deserve, by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day to save us and that through Him all things that have ever been created were created.

    It isn't childish to point out that the Mormon Church questions the Bible's validity by saying, "the Bible is the word of God as far as it has been translated correctly" and, no, I don't believe in any way, shape, or form that it has been translated incorrectly.

    It also isn't childish to point out that the word of God, the Bible, says the gospel is that Jesus died and rose again on the third day and compare it to the Mormon Gospel, as told by Spencer W Kimball, that says the gospel is a set of laws and ordinances.

    Ronnie also said, "The statement that the LDS Church says that the Bible cannot be trusted is a complete nonsense. if you know of any case examples where Mormons do not accept what the Bible says, and if you cann illuminate your false statement, or at least try to do so by presenting one or ten of these instances then we shall have some meat on the bonme and we can sinkl our teeth into it. Otherwise, the statement is a nonsense."

    Then why does the Mormon Church even say that "the Bible is the word of God as far as it has been translated correctly?" If your church uses the Bible as the word of God but not the only word of God in practice, why doesn't the official position of the church say this is so? Because by even bringing up that it hasn't been translated correctly is questioning its validity.

    In the context of John 3, eternal spiritual life does equal everlasting spiritual which does equal being saved while being condemned to be forever seperated from God in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone does equal eternal everlasting eternal spiritual death.

    John 3:14-18

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. 17 FOR GOD DID NOT SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD TO CONDEMN THE WORLD, BUT THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED.

    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  119. First things first I would love to address a couple things,

    1) I was converted into the LDS Church (great people, great morals, but greatly decieved too.) and now happly an Ex-Mormon.

    2) I was lied to by the Missionaries over many talks and discussions, not until after my batism they told me of things that they hid from me. (Provo, Utah.)

    3) Leah- I am proud of you and searching and dwelling in God's Word, finding the truth and Christ leading you back to him.

    4) I have been to many, many of these Church meetings. In fact, how can a Church be a place of worship if you spend the first hour (sacrament) and fifteen minutes talking about yourself and your experinces rather than worshipping God? On a psychological view point, you have to convince yourself and others that what you believe is what you believe, as if you have to convince yourself subconciously.

    5.) Kent, I would like to say you have done an amazing job in standing up for Christ. It is okay to stand up for him. After all, he is your savior and redeemer. However, it is not your fault that others may come off as seeing that you are agressive (in which I do not see.) but they do not really understand that you have a passion for standing up for Christ, which is amazing. There has been a tactic used my LDS members for the word 'contention', which really is another word for 'ignorance'.

    6.) Members of the LDS think they are the most unique 'religion' on this earth. But they are not. They are not the only religion that relies on works–as do muslims and jews. Remember, the Mormons are not our enemies, they are just very misinformed. The truth is, Christainity is unique, because we know that Nothing can be done, but to have faith.

    7.) Mormons will point out time and time again that they are Christians. Christ was very specific on who Christians were, and they were those who believed solemnly IN him. The difference between a Christian and a Mormon is summed up by two words: LDS= DOING, CHRISTIANS= DONE.

    8.) God gave us free will, which is 'free agency' in LDS terms. How can one believe the truth if they are told not to search but listen to thier own authority. Remember what a prophet is. Prophet is someone predicting something that will come to pass! All your prophets have all given MORALS nor prophecies, other than Joseph Smiths failed prediction in 1891 that Christs second coming would take place.

    9) If you belive Joseph Smith saw Christ in pure form like he claimed, why did Christ say the next time he will come it he will manifest him to the world and not JUST ONE person. Priesthood is invalid because Christ is alive, living and he is the High priest. The bible is very clear on this, and so is God. It is interchangeable. untransferable.

    10) It is funny, that your salvation is based on a piece of paper. You all will deny it, but if you look at it from the outside in, it is shockingly the truth. Your bishop gives you a temple reccommend (which I still have) to enter to do ordainces (sp?) that really determine your standing in the ''three kingdoms." If you notice, not once in the Bible there have been said Kingdoms of God.

    11) Notice that the words ''And ye shall be Gods'' was said by the serpent (In Genisis) and also "And all the KINGDOMS shall be yours" (Satan talking to Christ in this temptations)

    12) Can Mormons believe what they want? Sure, why not.. I mean, God did give us free will. He also warned us that we are also fools if we trust in ourselves, even for that spirits are not all of God, even Satan was an Angel of light.

    13.) God's Church needed to be restored? Nope. God specifically told us that even the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church. It will be here from beginning to end.

    14.) The Mormon church will soon face thier hardest times yet. I am not a prophet, nor am I higher than Christ, but I will tell you what I have seen from thier history, The supreme Court will likely decide the fate of Prop 8 (not that I suport Gay-Marriage, nor oppose it- it is not in my will to care of the things mankind do, but to care of my faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God) and will later be overturned. Since Mormons abide by rules of the land (which they did with both, blacks and polygamy) they will soon allow Gays into the temple to recieve marriage, if they do not, it will be unconsitutional and they will be hit with thousands, if not, millions dollars in lawsuits. Your ''Prophet" Monson will soon to claim that he recieved revelation that Gay marriage is now acceptable (just because the law has changed!) In Monson doing this, he will save many people into a fall out of the church to continue collecting more money off peoples tithings. I have not once donated money (not that I am greedy- because I understood that by the GRACE of God we are saved [Which means it is free. You cannot work for a gift if it was just handed to you right?] to the LDS Church ever. However, Pastors need to live and we OFFER to pay to help like Christ has helped the needy, the blind and deaf.

    15) It is true when they say, The Truth will set you free. I have never felt so free in my life, free from being slave to sin. Free from trying so hard to work it off. I accepted that I am a sinner, and that I will never be perfect, but I can be perfect IN Christ.

    I believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior, Reedeemer and Kings of Kings, the Son of God who spelt his blood for us because HE KNEW we never will be perfect, and the he loved us so much, he wanted us to come to him in his arms, pray and repent and believe.

    Lastly, Leah, you are not of the Devil. Only God can decide if you are or you are not. I know your conviction in Christ is true, because you have boldly stood up for him.

    God Bless you all.

    J.

  120. Jake: I hardly know where to begin to show you all the errors you make in your anti-Mormon diatribe. Is this the best you can do?

    For example, what is it that Satan said to A&E in the Garden> You say it was, ”And ye shall be Gods.”

    Why do you deliberately misquote the Bible?

    That's just for starters ….

  121. I don't know what Bible you have hold of, but all Bible versions I can find disagree with your Bible. For example:

    New International Version (©1984)

    "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

    New Living Translation (©2007)

    "God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil."

    English Standard Version (©2001)

    For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)

    "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

    For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

    God knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened. You'll be like God, knowing good and evil."

    King James 2000 Bible (©2003)

    For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    American King James Version

    For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    American Standard Version

    for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

    Douay-Rheims Bible

    For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.

    Darby Bible Translation

    but God knows that in the day ye eat of it, your eyes will be opened, and ye will be as God, knowing good and evil.

    English Revised Version

    for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

    Webster's Bible Translation

    For God doth know, that in the day ye eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened: and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    World English Bible

    for God knows that in the day you eat it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

    Young's Literal Translation

    for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it — your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

    None of these has anything like your odd ball version that renders this verse: ”And ye shall be Gods.”

    None of the versions, including the Hebrew, tells them they will BE Gods, but says they will be 'as' or 'like' gods in that they will know good from evil.

    The rest of your post is equally fatuous. I hope you do not have your feelings hurt by my pointing out to you that telling the truth is important in these matters.

    BTW – what did the missionaries tell you AFTER you were baptised that they didn't tell you BEFORE you were baptised? I expect you will know where I can talk to these missionaries to check out your story? I know you will not expect me to take your word for their LIES but will do all you can to help me verify that your version of what you say happened actually DID happen?

    I have seen dozens of similar 'letters' from those that say they are former Mormons, but when they have been pressed they prove themselves never to have been Mormons at all. I'm not saying this is so in your case, but I know that as a fine upstanding Christian you will have all the resources available through which I can check on every detail of your claims. I thank you for your full and earnest cooperation with me in this process.

    Your No. 14 is laughable. Does your denomination [which is it, by the way?] marry same sex couples? I'd appreciate being put in touch with your pastor so that I can verify this. I know you will not raise petty objections to letting me have his or her details.

    Is it your contention that ALL Christian denominations except the Latter-day Saints marry same sex couples? I didn't know that. Perhaps you will let me have the sources of information that proves this to be so.

    I thank you in anticipation of your free and full co-operation so that i can check out all your interesting claims.

    Ronnie – Mormon Christian

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  122. New American Standard Bible (©1995)

    "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    International Standard Version (©2008)

    There are many rooms in my Father's house. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you?

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)

    “There are many lodgings in my Father's house, and if not, I would have told you, because I go to prepare a place for you.”

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

    My Father's house has many rooms. If that were not true, would I have told you that I'm going to prepare a place for you?

    King James 2000 Bible (©2003)

    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    ——-

    New Living Translation (©2007)

    I was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don't know–only God knows.

    English Standard Version (©2001)

    I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)

    I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago– whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows– such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

    The third heaven – The Jews talk of seven heavens.

    1. The Velum, or curtain, וילון – "Which in the morning is folded up, and in the evening stretched out." Isaiah 40:22 : He stretcheth out the heavens as a Curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.

    2. The firmament, or Expanse, רקיע – "In which the sun, moon, stars, and constellations are fixed." Genesis 1:17 : And God placed them in the Firmament of heaven.

    3. The Clouds, or Ether, שקים – "Where the mill-stones are which grind the manna for the righteous." Psalm 78:23, etc.: Though he had commended the Clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven, and had rained down manna, etc.

    4. The Habitation, זבול – "Where Jerusalem, and the temple, and the altar, were constructed and where Michael the great prince stands and offers sacrifices." 1 Kings 8:13 : I have surely built thee a House To Dwell In, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever. "But where is heaven so called?" Answer: In Isaiah 63:15 : Look down from Heaven, and behold from the Habitation, מזבול, of thy holiness.

    5. The Dwelling-Place, מעון – "Where the troops of angels sing throughout the night, but are silent in the day time, because of the glory of the Israelites." Psalm 42:8 : The Lord will command his loving-kindness in the day time, and in the night his song shall be with me. "But how is it proved that this means heaven? "Answer: From Deuteronomy 26:15. Look down from thy holy habitation, ממעון, the Dwelling-Place of thy holiness; and from heaven, השמים, and bless thy people Israel.

    6. The Fixed Residence, מבון – "Where are the treasures of snow and hail, the repository of noxious dews, of drops, and whirlwinds; the grotto of exhalations," etc. "But where are the heavens thus denominated?" Answer: In 1 Kings 8:39, 1 Kings 8:49, etc.: Then hear thou in Heaven thy Dwelling – Place, מכון שבת, thy Fixed Residence.

    7. The Araboth, ערבות – "Where are justice, judgment, mercy, the treasures of life; peace and blessedness; the souls of the righteous, the souls and spirits which are reserved for the bodies yet to be formed, and the dew by which God is to vivify the dead." Psalm 89:14, Isaiah 59:17; Psalm 36:9, Judges 6:24; Psalm 24:4; 1 Samuel 25:29; Isaiah 57:20 : All of which are termed Araboth, Psalm 68:4. Extol him who rideth on the heavens, בערבות ba Araboth, by his name Jah.

    In the sacred writings three heavens only are mentioned. The first is the atmosphere, what appears to be intended by רקיע rekia, the firmament or expansion, Genesis 1:6. The second, the starry heaven; where are the sun, moon, planets, and stars; but these two are often expressed under the one term שמים shamayim, the two heavens, or expansions, and in Genesis 1:17, they appear to be both expressed by רקיע השמים rekia hashshamayim, the firmament of heaven. And, thirdly, the place of the blessed, or the throne of the Divine glory, probably expressed by the words שמי השמים shemei hashshamayim, the heavens of heavens.

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    King James Version

    1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

    12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

    20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

    35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

    42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

    Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

    There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial – The apostle certainly does not speak of celestial and terrestrial bodies in the sense in which we use those terms: we invariably mean by the former the sun, moon, planets, and stars; by the latter, masses of inanimate matter. But the apostle speaks of human beings, some of which were clothed with celestial, others with terrestrial bodies. It is very likely, therefore, that he means by the celestial bodies such as those refined human bodies with which Enoch, Elijah, and Christ himself, appear in the realms of glory: to which we may add the bodies of those saints which arose after our Lord's resurrection; and, after having appeared to many, doubtless were taken up to paradise. By terrestrial bodies we may understand those in which the saints now live.

    But the glory of the celestial is one – The glory – the excellence, beauty, and perfection. Even the present frail human body possesses an indescribable degree of contrivance, art, economy, order, beauty, and excellence; but the celestial body, that in which Christ now appears, and according to which ours shall be raised, (Philippians 3:21), will exceed the excellence of this beyond all comparison. A glory or splendor will belong to that which does not belong to this: here there is a glory of excellence; there, there will be a glory of light and effulgence; for the bodies of the saints shall shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. See Matthew 13:43.

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    There are also celestial bodies,…. Or bodies in the heavens, as the sun, moon, and stars:

    and bodies terrestrial; or bodies on earth, animate and inanimate, men, beasts, trees, minerals, &c.

    But the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another: though both sorts are bodies, yet their qualities differ, and there is a greater glory in the one than in the other. This is another similitude, serving to help our ideas of this doctrine of the resurrection of the body; that though it is the same in substance, yet different in qualities; and does not design any difference between the bodies of good men and bad men, elect and reprobate; as if the one were intended by the celestial bodies, and the other by the terrestrial; and much less degrees of glory in the saints themselves, who, imagine them in as low a form as can be, can never be compared to terrestrial ones; but it shows the difference there will be between the raised bodies and the present ones; which will be as great as that which now is between celestial and terrestrial bodies.

    Vincent's Word Studies

    Celestial bodies (σώματα ἐπουράνια)

    Not angels. For the meaning of σώματα bodies is not limited to animate beings (see 1 Corinthians 15:37, 1 Corinthians 15:38), and "the scoffers who refused to believe in the existence of the future body would hardly have admitted the existence of angelic bodies. To convince them on their own ground, the apostle appeals exclusively to what is seen" (Godet). The sense is, the heavenly bodies, described more specifically in 1 Corinthians 15:41.

    Bodies terrestrial (σώματα ἐπίγεια)

    Looking back to 1 Corinthians 15:39, and grouping men, beasts, birds, fishes under this term. It is to be observed that the apostle makes two general categories – terrestrial and celestial bodies, and shows the distinctions of organization subsisting between the members of each – men, beasts, fishes, birds, and the sun, moon, stars; and that he also shows the distinction between the two categories regarded as wholes. "The glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is different."

    Geneva Study Bible

    There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    People's New Testament

    15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial. These, too, have forms and glories, unlike, and suited to their condition.

    Wesley's Notes

    15:40 There are also heavenly bodies – As the sun, moon, and stars; and there are earthy – as vegetables and animals. But the brightest lustre which the latter can have is widely different from that of the former.

  123. Do I sense contention from you? I shouldn't engage discussion with you until you have a peaceful heart. These missionaries that I have discussed, one recently returning from his Mission is living in Orem, the other one is still on his mission in Nebraska. However, might as well re read the Websters translation anyways. says it right there.

    2) If combating only for two verses that I shown you, yet you beat around the bush and everything else I ever said, typical Mormon tactic. Nothing new for me here, I stood before missionaries and left them speechless, even over the the fact about Cofee. Here what the missionary told me when I asked why you are not allowed to drink Cofee, he said because it is hot, Then I pointed out that he drank hot coca, so what good does that do. He went on to correct himself saying caffine. Which is funny, my roommate, had a wall of soda cans laying on our counter, and your solution is caffeine? I think not.

    3) By the way, God also said that we were Natural not spiritual before. (1 Corinthians 15:46) That means your whole ''spiritual body before natural is invalid."

    4) Doctrine and Covenants 132:20-21 “Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.” (Pretty obivous you believe you can obtain Godhood by abiding the law- and..D&C Student Manual on page 358 has this quote of prophet Spencer Kimball: "Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe." God told us there IS only ONE God. He was always God, from beginning to end. He is perfect, he did not need to work his way up to Godhood like you all believe.

    5) Going back to the missionary discussions that I had, what I said is true, and I am an honest man of my word.

    6) 14 is laughable? This world is not our homes. My concerns are nothing of other people. However, I have a RELATIONSHIP with Christ. You can label anyone you want. You think God cares if you are black or white, Catholic, Muslim or Mormon? NO. God told us that there is ONLY one way to heaven? You know that way? Jesus Christ. But what I said is true. It has happened twice already, you would have to be blind not to see the third one coming. (read articles of faith No. 12) You would have to OBEY the law, so if Gay marriage would happen, you would have to OBEY in letting them recieve thier rights!)– That is if you actually really read whatever you are shown rather than taught blindly.

    7) Your articles of faith is invalid in your ''Church". Why? Because none of you believe in them, otherwise you wouldn't go door to door, forcing your ''Other Gospel'' on other people. When others go ahead and try to discuss with you, after we politely listen to you, all you say is sorry we do not have enough time to discuss we do not want to take up youre time. If ones salvation is not that important to take up someones time, then it is obvious what Kent and Leah says about you bringing good news is absoluetly wrong. Little off topic here, anyways– Article of Faith, No 13- Believing in all things and doing good to men- obviously not on that one either. Let me go as far as not say that you may not believe in them, probably just don't follow them.

    8) The worse insult I have ever heard by a mormon ways " We feel persucuted more than blacks." Remember- we were not the ones who perscuted you first, Was it not Joseph Smith one or many of his first visions claiming that no other religion is right that you must start your own? That is like persucting everyone around you but you. Joseph Smith was good. But not that good. His own mother said at a young age we was good at telling ''Native American" Stories. He is clever, but not that clever. I fell for it, but atleast I found the truth and got out.

    9) You can judge me all you want, and call people ''the devil'' or ''liar'', I won't be held accounted for it. You will. Brutal? Yes, but also the truth.

    10) I hope you well in your life journey, but I no longer do not want to engage in a conversation with someone who is contending. I think that is something you are taught, as well as a tactic you use anyways.

  124. Good call on #10 Jake, I was going to tell you not to speak to Ronnie because he baits you, then takes things you say out of context and twists them into something completely different than what you intended. He is very contentious and only interested in getting you to a point where he can personally attack you or distort what you say. Others on here are usually interested in conversation, but I assure you with him it will only end bitterly…

    Thank God for your journey out of Mormonism. Hold fast to Jesus, I praise Him for opening your eyes Jake!

  125. Jake, welcome and thank you for the encouragement. It is good to hear about people like you and Leah who have come out of the Mormon Church as it shows that although it seems like a lot of Mormons are a stiff necked bunch, that some do come to the truth of the real Jesus of the Bible.

    Whenever I want to quit talking to Mormons I get a message from the Holy Spirit that someone is listening so that helps soften hearing from Mormons that I am of the devil for being contensious (in their eyes) and that I am being mean spirited when I encourage them to question what their church teaches.

    Because, really, I do what I have been doing because I care about people and I never want to be mean to anyone.

    I asked Leah this but I don't remember her answering me. But I find it curious that Mormons will often respond that I am attacking them personally when I am critical of the Mormon religion. Especially when I have never said anything personal about anyone.

    Because when someone, for example, is critical of my Christian faith I don't consider that they are attacking me personally but that I just don't agree with what they believe.

    I once told a couple of Mormon missionaries that I don't care if the brethern have spoken as I, using the Bible, "test all things and hold fast to what is good." Not only that, in my own church I make note of the Bible verses my pastor is quoting and what point he is making and I look a little ahead and a little before, for context, and on an almost weekly basis I test with the Bible what he is saying to see if it fits with the Bible. The missionaries were puzzled that I would question what my pastor says.

  126. Jake, Mormon missionaries also are surprised that I, most of the time, don't read anything regarding spiritual matters except the Bible. No teaching manuels, my church doesn't have any, and no Christian books or literature.

    I don't need anything else except the Bible and if I want to learn what God says, I do directly to the source.

  127. Kent-

    You are absolutely right dude! There is absolutely nothing else that you need, no add ons or anything. The Bible is truely the best source of Truth, and it is the ONLY source of truth from God! I didn't start out as a Mormon, but it is okay to question, that is how the you know the truth. And the Truth always returns to God, and that is truely pure truth, I experienced it, and I am back with the Truth, the Bible. I love this verse:

    Matthew 7:21-21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"

    23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

    Gods Will- Believe in Jesus Christ, trust in him and have faith or perish. :)

    Christ told us that many people will come in his name, do things in his name, but he made it very clear of Gods will to trust and believe in his Son, Jesus Christ!

    This is not my all time favorite verse, but it defintely shows how others will come in his name. (most LDS people, when defending that they are Christian will point out thier Church name that has Jesus Christ in it, there is a term in modern day to describe that- false advertising.) – Christ was clearly born in Bethlehem not Jersulem. Am I saying you don't acknowlege Christ. No. I am saying your views on Christ are not of what they are told from his OWN disciples in HIS time! Was it not Isiah who prophesied the most about the coming of Christ?

    Huge question: When you pray for wisdom for faith, is that not showing your lack of faith to Christ? (Yes.) You asking God if something is true? He does warn us that we are fools to trust in ourselves since our hearts are harden :).

    2) I have been asked this a lot. Should we show God that we are loyal to him and show that we are doing works? Will that is not bad, but it wont decide your standing in Heaven a lone. Faith does it all. If you believe that God is almighty, powerful, everywere and in everything, Don't you think he is also so powerful to know our intentions in our hearts? (Yes- Christ died because our intentions. We sinned, even subconciously.) He gave us a gift and a chance to come to him. :)

    Leah- You are right! There are people who bait others in, to draw and twist things around. But that is what all closed minded people usually do. If they do not have the ''authority'' to search for the truth but be told this is how it is, I probably would have done the same. But since I was not raised Mormon, I could completely tell the difference.

    On a second note Kent- Any member outside the Mormon church will constantly feel like they are being attacked, because it is deep rooted in thier history. Since thier war in Missouri. Most of the time, outside of the Utah Mormon culture, it is really different. I know a lot of Mormons who drink alcohol and smoke weed here in Washington. They are also less judgemental. Living in Utah for a year was pretty hard for me after I decided to get out of the Church, cause it really closes in on them judging you. A lot of Mormons will stand up and say, Oh, no we don't do that. I always find it funny that one Mormon speaks for ALL of the Mormons. Washington State Mormons are really different from Utah Mormons. I guess sometimes it also depends on where you are living. :)

    Leah and Kent- it was great talking to you! God Bless and hope you have a really great day!!

  128. Ronnie-

    Also, In response to one of your questions, My pastors do not support same-sex marriage, but they also do not focus on the subject as much, because as we are taught by Christ, to love one another like they are your brothers and sisters. It is not my place to engage anything dealing with Same-sex marriage. The solemn reason why I say this is because, I focus a lot of my energy thinking about Christ and tread along my path on to becoming a youth pastor. As you say time and time again, we should not be contentious. If you would like to call me an supporter of anti-mormonism, you do have the free right to call me what you please, well… since it is America anyways.

    But before you judge me, let me prove to you that I love others, and have no beef with Mormons. I have been dating a Mormon, we are both at the same age. In fairness in the relationship, I was open minded to learn about Mormonism. So onward I went. Four months later, after much studying with both the Book of Mormon and The Bible, I knew the truth in my heart (keep in mind this also involved getting the Aaronic Priesthood, many discussions with ward members and three different bishops during the time I was there.). Despite leaving the Church, My girlfriend decided to stay with me. I told her I would never be able to give you a temple marriage (something she dreamed about since she was a kid.– Now you may see me as a selfish person for saying that– but before that pops into your head let me finish.– I told her I could however supply things to you that your fellow Mormons can. I can love you and share a relationship with you and bare children. I told her it would be nice to be open minded and fair to try my church to have a chance to fully understand what I believe. Remember, CHURCH is Christ. My relationship with Christ is amazing. It really does not matter which Church you go to as long as they share the fullness of truth with you (Which is the Bible- God's Word- as I stated many times before.) so, as we are now hitting 1 year and 8 months together, she now does not concider herself as a Mormon. But she does not fully concider herself as a Christian either since she is still learning. She understands the decision is fully important to her, because it is her individual salvation.

    I have pointed proof that marriage will not be in Heaven (Christ said this to us–read the book of Matthew, you will find it.) I also have taught her to fully understand the full context of what is being talked about in the Bible you must not cherry pick verses (like a lot of the LDS members do– and she agrees.) but must read the verse to verse, to chapter to chapter, to book to book.

    Now answering another one of your questions in partial since the questions that I have posed to you have been beaten around the bush time and time again, I will be fair and answer partially which is better than just beating around the bush and twisting words. The missionaries told me that Christ was enough for us. (left out after all we can do.) They also agreed Christ was born of Bethlehem. But upon reading your very own, Book of Mormon, doesn't it not state in Amos that Christ was born in Jersealm, which later they confirmed. They also told me the Bible and Book of Mormon go hand in hand. The simplicty of that answer is: No, they do not. They only go hand in hand because of infrigement, and a little grammar changes here and there. I have known the Bible for over 13 years of my life before becoming a Mormon. Upon leaving, I have learned more from the Bible and truth than I could ever possibly thought.

    Answering your contentious question, I am sorry for the anger in your heart. I hope you could feel peace upon my answer and hope it creates less confusion unto you. As I have been writting this to you, comes from a calm and peaceful heart. As I said, Mormons are great people, with great morals and responsibilties.

    (Ronnie) Is it your contention that ALL Christian denominations except the Latter-day Saints marry same sex couples? I didn’t know that. Perhaps you will let me have the sources of information that proves this to be so.

    I do not speak for all Christians. I do not know all Christians. So my answer to that is I do not know. If same sex marriage is illegal in the U.S then I am sure that it is against the law, and that as citizens we must abide by that law. I have not yet met a GBLT member that has been married together (legally of course.) but I do however have friends that are Gay, Lesbian and Bi. I have these friends because Christ wants us all to love eachother as we love God. Have you not heard. Before we can truely love God, we must love others. I do not know where you think I am being contentious. However I do know that usually, the term refers as a way out for a lot of LDS members in discussions. We Americans call that 'ignorance.'

    Now, onto the second part of that question. I am not saying Prop 8 failed because of JUST Mormons, but the majority of Mormons have planned to deny rights (which is unconsitutional in the United States.) The Mormon Church was fined for abusing it's authority in money, funneling it to campain for ads against Gay people. Am I to say it is entirely wrong? No. But funnling in Millions of Dollars to Califorinia to stop people from getting thier rights is very contentous. Not ALL Mormons are at fault for it, but since they ultimately made the biggest push, they are at fault for it the most. Now, Gays fighting back for rights, they do use the same tatics. Which is right, because we live in a democracy, which should be led by free vote, not buying votes. I am not to say for sure if the LDS leaders funneled out money so that they could buy votes (not directly for themselves but to get other people to vote.) because there has been no facts behind that— that have developed at this stage yet. But they have been fined for messing with funds.

    So, with that point of view I can continue on a topic that I tried to get across to you. Since you MAY hate on anyone that opposes your viewpoints, is that not showing good to men, which your articles of Faith tell you to do? Yes, God does make is clear that Man should Marry a woman. But in all fairness, God also told us that ONLY Christ is the way to heaven and that there is NO other way. Solmenly only through him, you are truely and ultimately saved.

    My questions for you to answer- if you choose to answer rather than beating around the bush like usual are: (These are pretty simple to answer for you, simply a yes or no would be easier and more appropiate than just beating around the bush.)

    1. Do you believe that Christ died for your sins, so that you can be with God?

    2. Do you believe that since Christ died for your sins, he is the only one to decide your salvation and not a Bishop (Temple Reccommend) or Prophet (Morals)?

    3.Do you believe that since Christ shed blood for your sins, that he has the authority to cover all sins–excluding ''after all you can do'?

    4. Do you believe that there is only one God, and ONLY one.

    5. Do you agree that when Christ said when he would return that he will manifest upon the world and not just to ONE child. (Joseph Smith)

    6. Do you believe, since Christ is living and alive today– that he serves as the High priest, and that it is untransferrable to recieve the priesthood in accordance to him being the High priest?

    7. Do you believe that Christ is the ONLY way to heaven that here truely is no other thing that you can do to get into heaven?

    8. Do you also believe that God is all powerful, he is the Alpha and Omega, beginning and the end– to know your true intentions in your heart before you really act on them?

    These are simple 8 questions for you, that really you need nothing to go into depth about. Most of these are truely just a simple Yes or No.

    One thing- Say I dropped a box of f at your house, in it you find a golden rolex watch. This is something you did not work for, from somebody that you did not know. Since I gave it to you as a gift, you recieved it free. Did you work for that Gift (hypothetically speaking ofcourse.) I would imagine a simple No to that question, but you did believe it came from me, since my name would be on that package or someone… Moving forward– Since you did not work for that Gift, is it safe to say since that Christ died for your sins and rose again so you could be with him as long as you believe that he truely did what I just said as parellel to the story of the watch I told you?

    Now, not to insult you, nor any member, but if your Prophets are true prophets called from God, and since God is perfect, that he can see everything and is in everything, wouldn't you think the issues of:

    1. Polygamy

    2. Blacks

    3. Jews would be respected for thier dead.

    4. Gays

    could all have been averted since, God IS a perfect GOD. That HE does see everything?

    There is one thing that Christian denominations do differenty than that of the Mormons. They respect other peoples dead. My own father(Protestant) was baptized for the dead without my permission nor anyones consent. Since I am his blood I would have to be asked for permission. Since I have records proving these (since I still have my membership for Familytree.) I could take legal action.

    Although this means nothing to me since, I know that we only have one chance then it is our Judgement so no legal action would be taken anyways, well because.. that is contention of my heart that I am showing anyways.

    Finally, I hope you can get to the bottom of my questions, and I am ONLY asking you Ronnie and no one else. Any one elses answers colaberating with Ronnie in what I asked will be disregarded, well since I did not ask you in the first place, only Ronnie.

    May you find the truth, my Mormon LDS Brother.

  129. Jake, but I have to say, that being a believer in Christ doesn't give anyone a license to sin so if people are drinking to get drunk and smoking marijuana to get high, not for medical purposes, then that can be evidence that they are not a true believer in Christ especially if it is habitual. So as a believer in Christ I do encourage people not to do those things.

    That some Mormons in Washington state drink and get high doesn't surprise me though and I would venture to say that they may even be going to the temple but telling their bishops that they are not doing those things and, of course, the bishops are not catching on as, no, they cannot read someone's heart as the Bible says only God knows the hearts of men.

    2 Chronicles 6:30

    30 then hear from heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of the sons of men)

    1 Kings 8:39

    39 then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men)

    Mormons, no, your bishops cannot read your hearts and if you could read their hearts you very well would be surprised about the amount of baggage the bishops themselves have in their own hearts. Everyone has their own issues before God and, actually, no one is worthy except for Christ.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  130. Kent-I do remember you asking that question, and sorry I didn't answer. I will answer now, but of course it's just my own personal feelings. It's self preservation. Let me explain: As a member raised in the church from birth, I did feel personally attacked when someone called my church a "cult" or false. It's because my mom was mormon, my grandma was mormon, all my cousins and friends were mormon…then along comes someone saying we are in a false religion or cult and it cuts you to the core! I felt offended and it was personal, because it is ingrained in you from childhood that you and your family are "special" and "chosen" and that we alone had the only truth. Then outsiders say it's all a sham, and you can bet it causes a sickness in your stomach and you want to shut that person up. I felt it when I first started researching, you don't want to believe your whole family is duped and everything you have been taught is a sham! That is why in my opinion, from my personal experience, Mormons take an attack on the church as a personal attack…when its put into your head at such a young age it's the only truth you've ever known, and you try to protect it. By protecting the church you protect your family, your life, your pride, yourself. Self preservation. Can you imagine finding out your whole belief system, everything you'd based your life, beliefs, and family on, was a lie? You'd fight at first too.

    I hope that helps…and I have seen the same tactics that I employed be employed by others including my family members, so I know it's the same for at least some others. I can't speak for everyone, but I know from other ex-mo's they felt the same way.

  131. Mormons, can you honestly say that if you died this moment that would would be worthy for eternal life?

    Well, if not, then you would have your part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone not a place in a lower glory that is better than any place on earth and the Bible says we only have this lifetime to get it right. By the way, I freely admit that if is about what I do, I fit in there myself as, no, I don't measure up.

    Hebrews 9:27

    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

    If we are honest with ourselves we all, to varying degrees, fit something on the list of sins that would give us our part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, not in some lower glory, and if you haven't conquered all of them by never repeating them, than that is your fate for eternity if it is at all about what you do and not completely about what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day.

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    If you don't believe it then consider, have you ever been angry with someone for, say, cutting you off on the freeway? Well most of the time that person didn't do it on purpose so were angry at him or her without a cause which Jesus says is the same as commiting murder in your heart which, in effect makes you a murderer. Also, have you ever told a lie and have you, completely, stopped lying? If not that makes you a liar. In addition, have you ever lusted after someone? If so that makes you sexually immoral and if we are honest with ourselves, then we, especially men, have lusted more than once and will likely do it again in the future.

    Well the good news, the true gospel of the Bible, is that Jesus was, is, and always will be none of those things described in Revelation 21:8 and He took our punishment for us so that we can have eternal life if we believe and trust completely in only who He is and in only what He did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day! If we believe this, then God sees Christ's righteouness and He doesn't see our sins anymore and we no longer have our part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone but instead we are guaranteed our place in the mansion where God is for eternity!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  132. Well, since I am forbidden from answering your 8 questions Jake I will simply testify to the three of you like I have done so many times.

    Let me first begin by thanking all three of you for being so passionate for Christ, any such individual is certainly a person I would want next to me in a firefight for example (since I served in the Air Force). I think it is a very selfless desire to be a youth pastor and I think it's great that people sign up for such a job to help free young people from the clouds of darkness that ever hang over them in these perilous times.

    My faith is simple, I cannot speak for all Mormons, I don't pretend to know the intent of all their hearts, but I can tell you what I believe.

    1. I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, I know He died for me and the whole of mankind, I believe in serving Him with all my heart, might, mind and strength. I will serve Him to the end of my life to show my Savior that I accept His gift and will share it with the world, without fear or favor. All men everywhere will hear the name of Jesus Christ and bow at His feet.

    2. I believe that ancient prophets in the Americas were inspired to write their dealings with the Son of God and their teachings, so that the Book of Mormon could stand as another testament of our Savior Jesus Christ.

    3. I believe that an unchanging God who had 12 Apostles established in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, would then have 12 Apostles on the earth today.

    4. I believe if the apostles in the Bible and the Book of Mormon were given the authority to act in the name of God, then that same authority would be on the earth today.

    May God bless and uphold all of you as you seek to share the message of Jesus Christ throughout the world.

  133. "Christ was clearly born in Bethlehem not Jersulem."

    Clearly he was, and all Latter-day Saints believe that he was and no [repeat, 'NO!'] Latter-day Saint believes that he wasn't, and neither does the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

    What seems obvious is that those that raise this clearly false objection usually do so in a more complete form. To assist you, in your understanding of what the Book of Mormon actually does say, let me provide the full context, the text, and the cogent rebuttal that clearly shows that most anti-Mormons are years behind in their petty criticisms of what Mormons ACTUALLY do believe. This should help you see why you need to erase this particular petty and false objection from your list of attack points. It will show you that your referent is an ignoramus.

    Read this. If you are able to follow the scholarly discourse it till lift from your shoulders the unnecessary burden that certain professional lying anti-Mormons are intent on loading you with. I am pleased to provide you with the truth for no cost, whereas Professional Lying Anti-Mormons always charge you for their lies.

    Read this, I pray thee:

    THE BOOK OF ALMACHAPTER 7:10

    And behold, he shall be born of Mary,at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel,who shall be overshadowed and conceiveby the power of the Holy Ghost,and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

    The verse, Alma 7:10, has been repeatedly pointed out as an error on the part of Joseph Smith in which it is believed he misidentified the place where Jesus was born. One of these is the Anti-Mormon Ministry,"Mormonism Research Ministry" that says:

    "In the early 1990s we [MRM] wrote two articles and an unpublished manuscript about the mistake that we believe Joseph Smith made in the Book of Mormon regarding the origin of Jesus' birth." We received immediate feedback from the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS), an organization based at Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah, telling us that our research was flawed. Several criticisms were published by the group, including a paper by Daniel Peterson, William Hamblin, and Matthew Roper in1995 entitled

    "On Alma 7:10 and the Birthplace of Jesus Christ."

    It is obvious that this is a very sensitive issue with these Mormons [all LIES are sensitive issues!, even God doesn't like them!] .

    According to them, Alma was referring to the surrounding area of Jerusalem and not the city itself. They insist that Alma was a real person, so to credit him with saying that Christ would someday be born in Jerusalem [NB. The text says AT not IN – the difference is essential to an honest person] and not in Bethlehem would be a seriousfaux pas. To say otherwise casts doubt upon thehistoricity of Mormonism's sacred Book of Mormon.[…]

    Professional Anti-Mormon Bill McKeever also believes Joseph Smith made a 'slip of the pen' in, "The Land of Jerusalem" and the Dead Sea Scrolls

    In an article entitled Mounting Evidence for the Book of Mormon, Dr. Daniel Peterson from BYU states,"

    Alma 7:10 predicts that Jesus 'shall be born of Mary, at [not 'IN'] Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers.' Is this amistake? Everyone knows that Jesus was born in [IN] Bethlehem, not in Jerusalem. But it is now plain from modern evidence that Bethlehem could be, and indeedwas, regarded anciently as a town in [IN] the 'land of Jerusalem.'

    A recently released text from the Dead SeaScrolls, for example – a text claiming origin in Jeremiah's days (and therefore Lehi's) – says that the Jews of that period were "taken captive from the land of Jerusalem…

    Joseph Smith could not have learned this from the Bible, though, for no such language appears in it" (Ensign, January, 2000, p. 22).

    Bill McKeever continues, Does modern evidence vindicate Joseph Smith and theBook of Mormon as Dr. Peterson claims? Do the DeadSea Scrolls lend credibility to Joseph Smith's claim of prophet? Though Dr. Peterson makes mention of the pseudo-Jeremias scroll in footnote 40, he does not quote the fragment at length. When the fragment isexamined in more detail we find that it does not

    mention Bethlehem or speaks of Jesus' birth.

    We also find that the phrase "land of Jerusalem" used in this scroll [McKeever admits the phrase is present in the DSS!] is probably [PROBABLY? He means 'HOPEFULLY!'] not a reference at all to the surrounding region of Jerusalem, but a reference to the actual city.[…]

    If Mormons choose to point to Pseudo-Jeremiah as proof that the land of Jerusalem is a common ancient expression, they should also concede that this is a reference to the city and not a reference to a land region that would somehow include the town of Bethlehem. [Read on for /proof that McKeever is wrong! in this baseless assumption]

    Without getting ourselves [us Mormons] hot under the collar it is obvious that neither of these two ministries have thought this through very well. Had they done so theywould have recognised that the quote Peterson supplies from Deutero-Jeremiah employs a phrase that was common when speaking of Jerusalem and its environsat the time the scroll was written.

    That would make it a common phrase that was understood and used to designate the Geographical Area around Jerusalem, and was not restricted to theCity of Jerusalem alone.

    McKeever's complaint that this document does not speak of the birth of Jesus is a [CYNICAL] smokescreen, for the point is only that the term, 'the land of Jerusalem' was in use BEFORE the Book of Mormon was translated by Joseph Smith.

    Therefore, if it can be shown that the term for the region round and about the actual city of Jerusalem itself was commonly referred to as 'the land of Jerusalem,' then Alma 7:10 and Joseph Smith are vindicated and Anti-Mormons must find another tree on which to sharpen their claws.

    What is known that supports Alma's use of the term'land of Jerusalem' to identify an area greater than thecity of Jerusalem alone?

    Daniel Peterson writes:

    The so-called "Amarna letters" (fourteenth century BC) likewise use the phrase "Theland of Jerusalem." [1]

    Indeed, the Amarna letters also allude to "a town of the land of Jerusalem, Bit-Lahmi by name," which W. F.Albright regarded as "an almost certain reference to the town of Bethlehem." [2]

    This is interesting evidence, which goes some distancein establishing the plausibility of Alma's prophecy,since it gives us a glimpse of an ancient administrativearrangement in the vicinity of Jerusalem.

    It shows, from an ancient historical and documentary perspective, that it was possible to conceptualize the regions surrounding a major city,including its dependent villages, as "the land of" that city.

    And it demonstrates, furthermore, that Bethlehem itself was, at least at one point, anciently regarded as a part of Jerusalem's land, exactly as it is in the Book of Mormon.

    However, at least one vocal critic of the Book of Mormon contends that the Amarna letters are far too old to be relevant to Lehi's Jerusalem in the early sixth century. "It would," he declares, "be like using a letter from King George III to prove the United States could still be rightly called the colonies." [3]

    This overstates the case, but his demand that we look at the Bible and other contemporary evidence is certainlynot without merit. [4]

    Peterson's Notes

    1. See Walter Harrelson, "Shechem in Extra- Biblical References," The Biblical Archaeologist 20 (1957): 4, 6—7.2. See JamesB. Pritchard, ed., The Ancient Near East (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1958), 1:274; also Yohanan Aharoni andMichael Avi-Yonah, eds., The Macmillan Bible Atlas, rev. ed. (New York: Macmillan, 1977), map 39. Hugh Nibley drew our attention to the Amarna letters years ago. See Nibley, An Approach to the Book of Mormon, 100—102. Nibley's references areto the Amarna letters, tablets 287.25 = "the land of the city of Jerusalem ([a-]mur mat u-ru-sa-lim an-n[i-] ta)"; 46, 61, 63 ="lands [matat] of Jerusalem"; 290:15—16, which discuss "a city of the land of Jerusalem, whose name is bit- ninib." Samuel A.B. Mercer, The Tell el-Amarna Tablets (Toronto: Macmillan, 1939), 722 n. L16, speculated that it might be possible to readthis as "Bethlehem." Transliteration and translation can be found on pp. 710—11, 722 of Mercer's book. The preferredtranslation is now William L. Moran, The Amarna Letters (Baltimore: John Hopkins University Press, 1992)3. BillMcKeever, "Problems," Mormonism Researched (Winter 1992): 4. (A longer, unpublished article on the same subject, bearingthe same title, was produced by McKeever in 1992, in conjunction with one Eric Johnson. When referred to, this unpublishedversion will be distinguished from the published article by Johnson's name and by the designation "Long Text.") McKeever'sclaim that Nibley left out "very pertinent information" concerning the origin and date of the Amarna letters (p. 3) is, by theway, manifestly false. Nibley accurately describes the nature of the Amarna letters on p. 469 n. 16 of An Approach to the Book of Mormon, referencing material in his original discussion on p. 101: "The Amarna Letters are the actual documents of theofficial correspondence between the Egyptian Government and the rulers of the various principalities of Palestine and Syriaabout 1400 BC, at the very time the Hebrews were entering Palestine. They were found on day tablets at El-Amarna on themiddle Mile in 1887." In this passage, Nibley refers to everything McKeever claims he "left out," including: the date, "1400BC"; that they were by "Palestinian chieftain[s]"; that they were "not of Hebrew ancestry"; and that they were written to "thePharaoh of Egypt" (see McKeever, "Problems," 3). Perhaps McKeever should not have "invite[d] [his] readers to check [his]sources for context accuracy" (p. 3). Certainly he has not accurately presented the context of Nibley's argument. 4. His ownexamination of the biblical evidence, however, is largely without merit. First of all, in order to show that the term "land of Jerusalem" was not current in biblical times, he must examine every text and every utterance from that period. But most textsand virtually all human utterances vanish without a trace, even from the modern period. He must prove a negative, but sincealmost none of the relevant ancient evidence survives, he can never reach certainty. Moreover, when he tries to establish a"biblical" usage-pattern for the phrase "at Jerusalem," his statistically problematic five samples extend from the originalHebrew text of 1 Kings 12:27 to the original Greek text of John 10:22, as if there were some "scriptural" style of prepositionuse that transcends difference not only of languages but of language families and that necessarily remains unchanged over thecourse of many centuries. See McKeever and Johnson, "Problems in 'the Land of' Jerusalem" (Long Text), 3. On pp. 4—6,McKeever and Johnson show remarkable ability to read their assumptions into the evidence of the Book of Mormon, taking anumber of texts as supporting their position which actually do nothing of the kind.

    RONNIE BRAY WRITES:

    When reading through the Tell-el-Amarna letters I chanced to read the very phrase – "The LAND OF Jerusalem" – disputed by Bill McKeever and other uninformed Anti-Mormons.

    It was a reference I had not seen used in discussions of this subject but one that puts Alma's usage of the term and its meaning beyond dispute of any intellect that functions normally, regardless of its stand on the divine inspiration of the Book of Mormon and the phrases' common use in the ancient world of the Old Testament.

    I was reading Edward Jones' "Discoveries and Documents," one-timePrincipal of the Congregational College, Manchester, England, and published by the Hepworth Press of London, 1974, under the imprimatur of The Methodist Publishing House, Wimbledon, I was delighted to find a letter from Prince Abdu-Heba of Jerusalem importuning the King of Egypt for military aid against the 'Apiru people.

    It reads:

    "To the king, my lord, say: Thus 'Abdu-Heba, thy servant. At the two feet of the king, my lord, seven times and seven times I fall.

    Behold the deed which Milkilu and Shurwardata did to the land of the king, my lord!

    They rushed troops of Gezer, troops of Gath,and troops of Keilah; they took the land of Rubutu; the land of the king went over to the 'Apiru people.

    But now EVEN A TOWN OF THE LAND OF JERUSALEM, BIT LAHMI BY NAME, A TOWN BELONGING TO THE KING HAS GONE OVER TO THE SIDE OF THE PEOPLE OF KEILAH.

    Let my king hearken to 'Abdu-Heb, thy servant, and let him send archers to recover the royal land for the king!

    But if there are no archers, the land of the king will pass over to the 'Apiru people

    [SOURCE: EA No. 290, ANET, p.489].

    [Emphasis added so that Anti-Mormons are left without excuse!]

    The sentence that arrested my attention is

    "But now even A TOWN OF "THE LAND OF JERUSALEM" Bit Lahmi [Bethlehem] by name, has gone over to the side of Keilah."

    Hugh Nibley showed in 1957 that one of the Amarna letters,written in the 13th century BC and discovered in 1887, recountedthe capture of

    "A CITY OF THE LAND OF JERUSALEM, Bet-Ninib" ……. (Source: CWHN 6:101 [Note from J.L.: CWHN = The Collected Works of Hugh Nibley. Volume 6 is An Approach to the Book of Mormon]).

    The Tell-el-Amarna Letters were written during the period 1417-1362. Their main content is diplomatic correspondence between Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV in their relationships with the kings of the city-states of Western Asia, including Syria and Palestine, especially in the last 20 years of this period.

    If there was ever any doubt that 'the land of Jerusalem' was a term used to include the village of Bethlehem, there can be no such doubt any longer.

    The Reverend Doctor Jones entertained no such McKeeverish doubts when he wrote:

    "We should note too that we have in these letters the first non-biblical reference to Jerusalem, and in this particular letter we have as well, in the word Bit-Lahmi, the first recorded reference to Bethlehem."

    While this intelligence will obviously prove a bitter disappointment to the brigade of finger pointing Anti-Mormons, it comes from an unimpeachable source and overcomes McKeever's petty objection that the Nibley offering made no mention of Bethlehem.

    In doing so, McKeever neatly sidesteps the ancient usage of the term 'Land of Jerusalem to identify the region round about Jerusalem as an ancient and authentic usage, as held in the Book of Mormon.

    Alma 7:10 stands, its vindication complete and beyond further attack.

    Only a knave or a fool will continue to hold it otherwise.

    No one of any denomination will get themselves into hot water for telling the truth, but you can only tell the truth if you know the truth.

    Now, at least you know the truth about what the Book of Mormon:Another Testament of Jesus Christ says about the birthplace of Jesus. You also know now that Jerusalem was known not just as a city, anciently, but as the 'land of Jerusalem,' a term than included lesser towns and villages in its vicinity, but more particularly in this context as the place where the House of Bread [beit lechem, or beit lashmi, etc] was situated.

  134. Jake – did you say that your bishop had given you a Temple Recommend, yet you say you only had the Aaronic priesthood? Did I misunderstand something you said? You said you still had it.

  135. Great Ronnie, you have presented an arugment for Jesus being born in the region of Jereusalem and not specififically in the city itself.

    But are you worthy enough this very moment to have eternal life if you left this world now? And if not, and there really is no middle ground between either being in the presence of God forever or being eternally seperated from him and having your part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, what would your fate be if you left this earth now?

    Have you completely conquered every sin? Because if not, you are still in them if it is about what you do but you can choose to reject Christ's sacrifice on your behalf by believing His grace is only after all you can do or you can accept His sacrifice and know now, not later, that your etenral destiny is secure. Remember, your rightousness (and mine and everyone else's too) counts for nothing as it is as filthy rags.

    Jesus said in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" and no, we don't need Joseph Smith's consent to be there as he has nothing to do with it. If we needed anyone else's consent to be there my savior would have said so.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  136. "Can you honestly say that if you died this moment that [you] would be worthy for eternal life?"

    Kent, I leave that decision up to Jesus Christ as He is supreme Judge of all mankind. To say that I was worthy of Eternal life would be a sinful and prideful statement eluding to the fact that I would think I know more than my Savior Jesus Christ. He is the judge of mankind and He will make that call for all of us.

  137. Ah yes Brian, it would be if Jesus hadn't said already that you could be saved and by what means. But Jesus told us what we needed to do to be saved. Jesus promised that all we need to do is believe on Him, have faith in Him, He did all the work for us and now it is finished and anyone who believes will have eternal life…then making the statement that you know you are saved because you have placed your faith in Jesus is not prideful or sinful! Its faithful, trusting, and the "blessed assurance" Jesus himself gave to us. It's our hope and our salvation, the gospel of Jesus Christ, and it is in no way sinful! To know you have eternal life and will live with God is the promise He made us, and by accepting it we have His assurance!

  138. If you have no idea if you will live with God when you die, and are convinced you can't know until after your dead and judged, it's already too late for you. God gave us the manual, He gave us simple instructions on how you can know NOW! Please take off the Mormon blinders and read the New Testament, ask God to open your eyes and show you HIS truth, not what I say or what your "prophet" says! What God says. And He will.

  139. Amen, Leah! Ronnie, God is telling you through His word in the Bible how you can know for sure, and say with certainty that you can now know you have eternal life not later!

    I pray and hope Ronnie's eyes are opened by the Holy Spirit and if it does happen, he will make a good witness for the true kingdom of God with his writing skills!

    John 3:14-18

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. 17 FOR GOD DID NOT SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD TO CONDEMN THE WORLD, BUT THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED.

    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  140. .

    Why do you rail on as if I did not know what the Bible says? You assume too much and your assumptions are false. Try not to act as if you were God. You embarrass yourself when you pretend to be able to scree by occult means what is in the mind of another. You are sooooo contentious I am surprised that you cannot see it for yourself. You can see what you consider to be the fault of others and accuse them unjustly, but will not remove the beam from your own eye.

    Now you have learned that the Book of Mormon: Another Testimony of Jesus Christ is speaking the truth ans using an accepted and proven description of the Land of Jerusalem, you will admit that openly for the world to see that you are not so proud that you are unable to learn and admit your mistakes?

    I pray that God will open your eyes and free you from the arrogance of supposing that everything you say is God's truth. As for, me, God known my heart.

  141. Ronnie- I refuse in speaking or answering or reading your posts, because one, you did not answer any of the questions I presented to you. Two: You did what you only know best, beat around the bush and use something else. That is subconciously perfectly admitting that you do not know the answers that I have given you. There are so many things I can say to you about the birthplace that you are absolutely blinded about, but since I am refusing to answer, or talk to you because all you ever do is twist things and beat around the bush with your heart felt with anger, good luck. If you were part of a debate team, you would surely lose. You back up with no facts (assumptions) and twist others word around, and never answer questions provided to you. I would be a fool to have a conversation with someone that does such these things.

    Brian- It is always nice to meet a person, who has served in the Military, which is what I wish I can do, and believe me I have tried (Marines- in which my younger brother now serves.) I am unable to serve in any part or any branch of the Militrary because of my disability (Being Deaf.)

    Kent- In any way that I have said these things, I do not mean that we have a liscence to sin. That is wrong. I would assume that since they are all doing those things, I would agree with you, lying to thier bishops and such.

    Question for Kent and Leah- Do you guys live around the Utah areas or somewhere else, and do you see the same happen that I have seen happen in Washington?

  142. So correct me if I'm hearing you wrong Leah, but you just said that you don't need Jesus Christ to judge you at the last day because you already know you've been granted Eternal Life. If it is easy to be granted Eternal Life by simply believing as all 4 of us on here clearly do believe, then why all the fuss about the judgement day and the need to keep the commandments.

  143. 1 Corinthians 10:7-12

    Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall!

    This verse addresses those Christians that are so sure of their salvation as something accomplished that they boast about it [as, for example, in several of the mean-spirited posts above] and castigate others that take the more balanced and completely scriptural view.

    For the benefit of the boastful, I post what Doctor Barnes, a non-LDS Christian has to say to these people in his "Notes on the Bible" commentary:

    Wherefore – As the result of all these admonitions. Let this be the effect of all that we learn from the unhappy self-confidence of the Jews, to admonish us not to put reliance on our own strength.

    That thinketh he standeth – That supposes himself to be firm in the love of God, and in the knowledge of his truth; that regards himself as secure, and that will be therefore disposed to rely on his own strength.

    Take heed lest he fall – Into sin, idolatry, or any other form of iniquity. We learn here:

    (1) That a confidence in our own security is no evidence that we are safe. Mark this well!

    (2) such a confidence may be one of the strongest evidences that we are in danger. Mark this well!

    Those are most safe who feel that they are weak and feeble, and who feel their need of divine aid and strength, such as Latter-day Saints who rely on the true source of strength; and they will be secure.

    (3) all professed Christians should be admonished.

    All are in danger of falling into sin, and of dishonoring their profession; and the exhortation cannot be too often or too urgently pressed, that they should take heed lest they fall into sin.

    The leading and special idea of the apostle here should not he forgotten or disregarded. It is, that Christians in their favored moments, when they are permitted to approach near to God, and when the joys of salvation fill their hearts, should exercise special caution. For:

    (a) Then the adversary will be especially desirous to draw away their thoughts from God, and to lead them into sin, as their fall would most signally dishonor religion [as their posts above signify];

    (b) Then they will be less likely to be on their guard, and more likely to feel themselves strong, and not to need caution and solicitude. Oh, yes!

    Accordingly, it often happens that Christians, after they have been especially favored with the tokens of the divine favor, soon relapse into their former state, or fall into some sin that grieves the hearts of their brethren, or wounds the cause of religion.

    So it is in revivals; so it is in individuals. Churches that are thus favored are filled with joy, and love, and peace.

    Yet they become self-confident and elated; they lose their humility and their sense of their dependence; they cease to be watchful and prayerful, supposing that all is safe; and the result often is, that a season of revival is succeeded by a time of coldness and declension. And thus, too, it is with individuals. Just the opposite effect is produced from what should be, and from what need be. Christians should then be especially on their guard; and if they then availed themselves of their elevated advantages, churches might be favored with continued revivals and ever-growing piety; and individuals might be filled with joy, and peace, and holiness, and ever-expanding and increasing love.

    Let not this advice be wasted. God will not be mocked.

    Of the same verse, Doctor reverend Clarke says in his "Clarke's Commentary on the Bible":

    Let him that thinketh he standeth – Ὁ δοκων ἑσταναι·

    Let him who most confidently standeth – him who has the fullest conviction in his own conscience that his heart is right with God, and that his mind is right in the truth, take heed lest he fall from his faith, and from the state of holiness in which the grace of God has placed him.

    The verb δοκειν, which we render to seem, 'to think,' 'to suppose,' is used by the best Greek writers, not to lessen or weaken the sense, but to render it stronger and more emphatic.

    In a state of probation, such as all humanity are in, every thing may change; while we are in this life we may stand or fall.

    Our standing in the faith depends on our union with God; and that depends on our watching unto prayer, and continuing to possess that faith that worketh by love.

    The highest saint under heaven can stand no longer than he depends upon God and continues in the obedience of faith.

    He that ceases to do so will fall into sin, and get a darkened understanding and a hardened heart: and he may continue in this state till God come to take away his soul.

    Therefore, let him who most assuredly standeth, take heed lest he fall; not only partially, but finally and forever.

    For those still doubting what Paul intended believers to understand from his words, he emphasises that even true believers may fall into temptation, into sin, and away from steadfastness in the Gospel, and from a lively and comfortable exercise of grace; finally, totally, and irrecoverably; since they remove themselves from being enclosed in the arms of everlasting love, and move themselves out of the hands of Christ, and abandon the foundation of true faith and turn themselves into accusers and agents of the Devil.

    They fall to dishonour of God, they reproach the Gospel of Christ, and grieve the Spirit of God, to the wounding of their own souls, causing deliberately the stumbling of weak believers, and strengthening of the hands of the wicked.

    Paul's exhortation is not superfluous, and many and strong are the reasons and arguments why Christians that are proud and boastful in what they choose to call their eternal security, should take heed lest they fall. If they were not able to fall, then the apostle of Ch rist would not suggest that they could.

    This exhortation must considered as given to formal professors of the Christian faith, for it is very pertinent that even such as these may fall, as they often do, from that which they seemed to have, from the truths of the Gospel, and a profession of them, and into scandalous sins, and at last into condemnation; and since the apostasy of such persons is injurious to the honour and interest of true religion, the in the wake of their defalcation the ways of God are evil spoken of, the name of Christ blasphemed, profane sinners hardened, and weak believers stumbled, as they are by the falls of real Christians.

    It must be worse for themselves, who hereby bring upon themselves a severe punishment [2 Peter 2:21] and these seem to be the persons the apostle chiefly warns who who truly thought they stood, for when they stood in the true grace and love of God and Christ, but now are totally fallen away.

    Manifestly they imagined, but vainly for they were swelled with a vain opinion of themselves, their gifts and knowledge, and so they who tempted God, and "trusted" to themselves, as the Ethiopic version reads it, and despised all other believers. These are heretics of whom Jesus said it were better that they were cast into the sea with a millstone round their necks.

    These words are what the Bible says. If you disagree with God's word, then you must complain to God about it.

    Pride goeth before a fall.

  144. Why We Fear Mormons

    By J. SPENCER FLUHMAN

    Published: June 3, 2012

    Provo, Utah

    MOCKERY of Mormonism comes easily for many Americans. Commentators have offered many reasons, but even they have found it difficult to turn their gaze from Mormon peculiarities. As a result, they have missed a critical function of American anti-Mormonism: the faith has been oddly reassuring to Americans. As a recent example, the Broadway hit “The Book of Mormon” lampoons the religion’s naïveté on racial issues, which is striking given that the most biting criticisms have focused on the show’s representations of Africans and blackness.

    As a Mormon and a scholar of religious history, I am unsurprised by the juxtaposition of Mormon mocking and racial insensitivity. Anti-Mormonism has long masked America’s contradictions and soothed American self-doubt. In the 19th century, antagonists charged that Mormon men were tyrannical patriarchs, that Mormon women were virtual slaves and that Mormons diabolically blurred church and state. These accusations all contained some truth, though the selfsame accusers denied women the vote, bolstered racist patriarchy and enthroned mainstream Protestantism as something of a state religion.

    Despite internal division, persecution and periods of rampant defection, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has continued to grow, even though it continues to make Americans uneasy. The political scientists Robert D. Putnam and David E. Campbell found that Mormonism ranked with Islam near the bottom of the list of Americans’ “most respected” religions.

    Making Mormons look bad helps others feel good. By imagining Mormons as intolerant rubes, or as heretical deviants, Americans from left and right can imagine they are, by contrast, tolerant, rational and truly Christian. Mitt Romney’s candidacy is only the latest opportunity for such stereotypes to be aired.

    Contemporary anti-Mormonism tends to emerge either from the secular left or from the evangelical Protestant right. For the left, Mormonism often functions as a stand-in for discomfort over religion generally. Mormon religious practice offers a lot of really, well, religious religion: ritual underclothing, baptism for the dead, secret temple rites and “clannishness” (a term invoked in the past in attacks on Catholics and Jews). Any religion looks weird from the outside, but the image of Mormonism seems caught somewhere between perpetual strangeness and strait-laced blandness.

    When a perceived oddity is backed by Mormon money or growing political clout, the left gets jumpy. MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell and HBO’s Bill Maher have resorted to caricature, stereotyping and hyperbole in their anti-Mormon attacks. Liberals were outraged by Mormon financing of Proposition 8, the 2008 ban on same-sex marriage in California. They scoff at Mormonism’s all-male priesthood and ask why church leaders have yet to fully repudiate the racist teachings of previous authorities.

    For the right, Mormonism figures in even more complicated ways. The Mormon road to respectability has often led, as it did for Mr. Romney, through Harvard Business School; pro-business Republicans have found ready friends among well-placed Mormons. But many rank-and-file evangelical Protestants call Mormonism a cult — as the pastor Robert Jeffress did last fall — or a “non-Christian religion.” Indeed, evangelical hatred has been the driving force behind national anti-Mormonism.

    The brief “golden age” of Mormonism’s positive image — roughly 1935 to 1965, according to Jan Shipps, perhaps the leading non-Mormon scholar of the Latter-day Saints — coincided with a period of conservative Protestant retreat. Embarrassed after their fight with modernists in the mid-1920s, evangelical Protestants withdrew from public engagement, built their own impressive church and educational networks, and re-emerged in the 1970s as a formidable force on the political right. The subsequent “countercult” movement within evangelicalism targeted Mormonism with gusto.

    Anti-Mormon attacks by evangelicals have betrayed anxiety over the divisions in their movement and their slipping cultural authority as arbiters of religious authenticity. Some big-hearted evangelicals have recently reached out to Mormons with genuine understanding, but they must now fend off charges of getting too cozy with Satan’s minions. Because evangelicals are hard pressed for unity to begin with, and because they have defined themselves less and less in terms of historic Christian creeds, their objections to Mormonism might carry less and less cultural weight.

    Many conservatives, in fact, seem more concerned with Mr. Obama’s political heresies than with Mr. Romney’s religious ones. It may be that Mr. Obama’s unpopularity will prove a key factor in Mormonism’s continued mainstreaming. With politics and religion so inextricably linked in our culture, a Romney presidency would entail lasting effects for Mormonism and its image. Segments of the religious right might finally make peace with, if not quite accept, Mormonism’s various heterodoxies. The left may struggle to comprehend a steadily diversifying faith that has increasingly global reach.

    This election, regardless of outcome, unquestionably pushes the United States onto new political terrain because neither candidate represents the religious old guard. But until Americans work through our contradictory impulses regarding faith, diversity and freedom, there is no reason to believe anti-Mormonism will go away anytime soon.

    Spencer 33

    [J. Spencer Fluhman, an assistant professor of history at Brigham Young University, is the author of the forthcoming book “ ‘A Peculiar People’: Anti-Mormonism and the Making of Religion in 19th-Century America.”]

  145. Ronnie said, "Why do you rail on as if I did not know what the Bible says? You assume too much and your assumptions are false. Try not to act as if you were God. You embarrass yourself when you pretend to be able to scree by occult means what is in the mind of another. You are sooooo contentious I am surprised that you cannot see it for yourself. You can see what you consider to be the fault of others and accuse them unjustly, but will not remove the beam from your own eye.

    "Now you have learned that the Book of Mormon: Another Testimony of Jesus Christ is speaking the truth ans using an accepted and proven description of the Land of Jerusalem, you will admit that openly for the world to see that you are not so proud that you are unable to learn and admit your mistakes?

    I pray that God will open your eyes and free you from the arrogance of supposing that everything you say is God’s truth. As for, me, God known my heart."

    First of all I didn't say I believed what you presented about the Book of Mormon being correct about Jesus's birthplace was valid but just that you presented an argument in favor of this. Frankly I don't have time to go through and analyze your 'virtual novels' anyway as I already spend too much of my spare time coming to sites like this.

    No, I don't want to be God or a god as the job is already filled by the one and only true God and I find it ironic that a Mormon, someone who wants to be a god, would tell me that I am trying to be God.

    It is also ironic that a Mormon would say I am trying to read someone's heart, as Mormons believe that men, your bishops, can read others hearts which they can't as only God can do so, who try to do so to determine if the people are worthy to attend some temple which your church believes that they can't ever have eternal life without entering there.

    No, I can't read anyone's heart but I can point out false teachings.

    The Bible doesn't teach I need to be worthy to to enter any temple to perform rituals and obey a bunch of ordinances, that I need to tithe to the Mormon Church, that I need to be a member of the Mormon Church, etc to have eternal life.

    It does teach that believing in who Jesus is and what He did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day to save us, sinners who can never save ourselves, is what gives us eternal life and nothing else.

    Ronnie, you are right that yes it is arrogant and prideful to say that we are worthy enough to have eternal life because none of us can be in even 10,000 life time ever be worthy enough.

    However, Jesus is worthy for us and He gives us eternal life by His, and not our works, as grace is a free gift and not after all we can do.

    So, yes, we can know now, not later sometime in the distant future if we progress to be there, that we have eternal life if we trust and believe completely in Jesus and his saving work on the cross.

    Again, Mormons would you inherit eternal life if you left this earth this very moment?

    Be honest with yourselves, between you and God, have you conquered all of your sins so you never repeat any of them ever again. If not, the Bible teaches that if we are guilty of breaking any part of the law we are guilty of the whole law and it also teaches that we only have this life time to get it right.

    I will freely admit that I, on my own behavior, would not inherit eternal life if I left this earth now but I realize that I will never ever, completetly ever be able to do so. So, no, I am not worthy but thank God Jesus Christ, my savior is worthy for me! I already know I have eternal life!

    Ronnie, did you really pray that my eyes be opened to the truth or are you just saying this in your post? I know I pray every day that Mormons eyes are opened.

    Something Mormons might not realize is that people like me don't go on missions like they do but that the reason why I come to sites like this and talk to Mormons when I can in person is part of my ongoing mission to reach Mormons and no, even though people like me have been accused by some Mormons of doing so, we don't do what we do to harrass Mormons. So, yes, our intentions are good as we do care about people.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  146. What is our motivation for trying to reach Mormons? Well, in a nutshell, is that we believe there are only two alternatives either we have eternal life or we have eternal damnation condemned for eternity to be seperated from God by having our part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

    We also believe that eternal life never means becoming a god ourselves and that God was never ever a man first and that there is one God and it is impossible to progress to ever be a god.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  147. Everyone will be judged Brian, the message of the Bible on judgment is clear. But there are separate judgments for believers (Judgment seat of Christ) and for nonbelievers (Great White Throne). Believers will have their works judged, but it in no way affects their salvation. We are saved, period. Read 1 Corinthians 3.

    It is not pride to believe the promises Jesus gave. When He said all who believe in me will have eternal life, and "nothing will pluck you from my hand" and I believe Him, it's called FAITH and TRUST. I believe Jesus and trust His promises, and it humbles me and other followers to serve and obey Him out of gratitude and love. Anyone who thinks trusting Jesus' words makes you "prideful" is obviously outside of the promise, otherwise you would know the power of saving grace and understand just how much it humbles you. To have the most valuable gift given to you out of love when you have done nothing to deserve it changes your heart, perspective, and life and you want to give it all to Jesus!

  148. I would politely like to also share something with all of you, because not only is this message the truth, but it is also a very important and a very powerful one. Before I talk to you about this. I would like to answer Kent and Leahs question, that they have asked Mormons.

    If I were to die, today, I would die with the peace knowing in my heart, that Jesus Christ WILL save me, because I trust in him with all my heart and all my soul. And since I understand that we can not work our way into heaven alone, that his blood is entirely enough to save me. The big key to this passage that I just said is, his blood is enough to save us. Leah talks earlier on about drowning in the water, and I completely agree with here metaphor.

    Those who do not trust in Christ, that his blood is enough for you, and an amazing gift for you, that the Bible is the truth and THE most correct book on Earth, then would that be saying, that Christ is a liar? Wouldn't you be calling him that?

    On another note, those of you who fight against the loyal Christian followers, that is indeed anti-Christian. If you fight against Christians, angered against them and the truth that they bare unto you, you are also fighting against Christ. I know it hurts many to hear the term Anti-Christian because in your minds you see that you are Christians, but your hearts are very harden to see that we are also followers of Christ. If we were to agree with you, that you were Christians, then we would not have a problem with you, but since you say that you have to work for your salvation, something that we do not believe because it IS a gift to us. We understand, that we can never be perfect and that we never will be. But we also understand that it does not give us the right to sin whenver we like. We do not idolize a man, nor do we follow man. We follow of the law here, only if it is by the law Christ tells us we should obey. I do not see you as my enemey but rather I love everyone of God's Creation. Because before we can love God, we have to come to love others. With contention in your heart Ronnie, facing that anger in your heart, I can tell you that is not of the LORD.

    There is a big contradiciton in your doctrine as well. Women walk around with earrings, yet men cannot. They say because we are abusing our body, and that we should take care of our body. I agree, we should treat our bodies amazing, after all, God created us. The only answer I get back from you at all times is We have the free agency to do this and that. If you truely ultimately believe that, then why do you not use that ''agency'' on Coffee, Tattoos, peiercings and other things. It is because they DO NOT actually believe that it really applies to women for this reason: To look beautiful for their man. If that is the case, then you are following man. You should be looking at what God says, that NO ONE should be above HIM. So the simple reason of women having earings, they are putting thier selfish self and to look better for Men above what God says. That my friend, is called a contradiction. It is also called being a hypocrite. Yes, it may be rude, but the truth is not always friendly. So, finally on to one of my favorite pieces of information- the one that really caught my eyes, and opened them is a talk called "The Dispensation of Grace" I really ultimately love reading this article. It was not found on a Anti-mormon site, but a talk from a person reviewing everything when he compared, studied and saw the huge difference. The best part, is you will enjoy it.

    "The Dispensation of Grace"

    Joseph Smith made a critical mistake by his lack of knowledge of the Bible, especially the New Testament. He failed to realize the Bible itself contains a "New Revelation" which is dated after the alleged revelation in the Book of Mormon.

    Jesus Christ appeared to the Apostle Paul several years after His resurrection to give the "New Revelation" for us. This revelation was kept a secret by God and therefore could not have been available to the peoples of America. The revelation is called, "The Dispensation of Grace" and supersedes the doctrines claimed in the Book of Mormon, even if they were true.

    Unfortunately, many Christians are unaware the we are living in the Dispensation of Grace which also supersedes the Dispensation of Law under which Jesus Himself lived while a man. The following scriptures from the New King James Version clearly describe the revelation given to the Apostle Paul as the "MYSTERY" hidden by God through all the ages.

    The Mystery!

    The New Revelation Of Jesus Christ!

    The commandments given to Israel and taught by Jesus before his crucifixion were intended by God to be for the Nation Israel only. They were not given to or intended for the Gentile nations, nor were they intended for the "Church Age" in which we live. In Acts 10 and 11 God tells Peter and the other Apostles that He has turned to the Gentiles with the gospel. In Acts 13:45-46 God says that He gave the gospel to Israel first but they rejected it. Therefore, He is sending Paul and Barnabas to preach the word to the Gentiles. The scriptures are very clear about this division. The present Church, which is referred to as the Body of Christ, began when God gave the revelation to the Apostle Paul. God also instructed the Apostle Peter to take the gospel to the Gentiles at the same time. This Church Age, Age of Grace, or Dispensation of Grace, was a mystery hidden by God throughout the ages. It is found nowhere in prophesy. God wanted Israel to be the light unto the world, but they rejected Jesus Christ.

    Unfortunately, many Christians are unaware the we are living the Dispensation of Grace which also supersedes the Dispensation of Law under which Jesus Himself lived while a man. The following scriptures from the New King James Version clearly describe the revelation given to the Apostle Paul as the "MYSTERY."

    Romans 11:9-25 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always." 11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation [has] [come] to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall [is] riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy [those] [who] [are] my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away [is] the reconciling of the world, what [will] their acceptance [be] but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit [is] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]; and if the root [is] holy, so [are] the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, [remember] [that] you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well [said]. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in [His] goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who [are] natural [branches], be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this MYSTERY, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

    Romans 16:25-27 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith– 27 to God, alone wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ forever.

    Ephesians 3:8-13 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what [is] the fellowship of the MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly [places], 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. 13 Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

    Colossians 1:24-27 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

    1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

    Acts 10:44-45 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

    Acts 13:45-46 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

    Acts 14:27 Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.

    Acts 15:7-9 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as [He] [did] to us, 9 "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith."

    Acts 22:21 "Then He said to me, `Depart, for I will send you (Paul) far from here to the Gentiles.'"

    God has temporarily cast away the nation Israel because they rejected Jesus Christ. He has now turned to the Gentiles with a new method of salvation. "You will be saved by grace through faith for it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." This new method of acceptance before God is also available to the individual Jew. There is a remnant of Jews who accept Jesus. Israel will be restored during the Great Tribulation at the end of the Dispensation of Grace.

    Romans 11:1-5 I say then, has God cast away His people (the individual)? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life?" 4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    Romans 11:13-25 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy [those] [who] [are] my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away [is] the reconciling of the world, what [will] their acceptance [be] but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit [is] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]; and if the root [is] holy, so [are] the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, [remember] [that] you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well [said]. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in [His] goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who [are] natural [branches], be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

    Why did God keep the Dispensation of Grace a mystery? Because Satan, his evil demons and people under his control (rulers of this age) would NOT have killed Jesus had they known about the Dispensation of Grace. In Jesus' death we become victorious over sin. We can now come into the Throne of Grace to live forever with God. The Dispensation of Grace was kept a mystery hidden by God in order to give us a way of salvation.

    1 Corinthians 2:6-8 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden [wisdom] which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    The rapture of the Church was also a mystery which will occur in the future and is described in 1 Corinthians 15. It is also a part of the Dispensation of Grace.

    1 Corinthians 15:50-57 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed– 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where [is] your sting? O Hades, where [is] your victory?" 56 The sting of death [is] sin, and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Ephesians 1:7-10 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth–in Him.

    Ephesians 3:1-7 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles– 2 if indeed you have heard of the Dispensation of the Grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

    Ephesians 6:17-20 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints– 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

    Colossians 2:1-3 For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and [for] as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and [attaining] to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    Mormons attempt to live according to the Dispensation of the Law. This practice is contrary to the Word of God under this new covenant, the Dispensation of Grace. The Apostle Paul was very critical of this practice of mixing law and grace.

    2 Corinthians 3:11-18 For if what is passing away [was] glorious, what remains [is] much more glorious. 12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech– 13 unlike Moses, [who] put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the [veil] is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

    God sees your heart and hears your prayer. Your sins are forgiven when you believe in faith. No works! No doing! No one else! No judge! God judges the heart. You can trust Him.– (end of article.)

    This by far, is the most amazing message, that gives you all proof, the wisdom to know that we now live in the Dispensation of Grace. I pray that thee, open your hearts and minds and trust in the LORD. To have faith and not to ask of it, pruifies your heart by your true intentions of having faith. those who pray for faith (asking if such and such book is true) really does not have a hearts intention of faith, but have an intention in thier heart to TRY to seek after the truth.

    With much love, my brothers and sisters.

    J.

  149. Leah, "Believers will have their works judged, but it in no way affects their salvation. We are saved, period."

    Why then would there be a need for judgement? It cannot be rationally argued that believers are judged but it has nothing to do with their salvation. The only clear logical explanation is that we are all saved in Christ, we all will be raised to immortality, but the blessing of living with God the Father and Jesus Christ, eternal life, is granted to those who pass the final judgement of Jesus Christ

    Leah, I want you to pray tonight and speak with your Father in Heaven and say your above statement to Him. Just sit there and ponder waiting for your Father to confirm or deny that statement. "[I] will have [my] works judged, but it in no way affects [my] salvation."

    Just please ponder on that statement. . .

  150. Brian- No offense, but why would she even need to pray that? She does not lack faith. She has faith in Christ to save her. That is what it is all about man. We will be judged. Did Christ stutter when he said, believe in me, and you will be saved? No, he did not Brian. There are a lot of people who know him, but do not follow him, YES even Mormons. You guys are not perfect, pretty far from it actually. No one is. You base your life on perfection in working off salvation "After all you can do''. The difference between you and her Brian is that she does not need to pray for her faith. You do. You had to. Your faith is based off of a warm fuzzy feeling, believing what Joseph Smith did was true (He did indeed write the Book of Mormon, but whether if it was truely from God or inspired has been proven false..A prophet needs to be 100 percent right, all the time, every time). You may ask me, how do I pray for my faith- Cause you had to ASK God if it was true. Leah has extreme faith. Something YOU will never take away from her. You will never pluck her from Christs hand. We Christians do not pray if the Bible is true, because WE know it is true. We know it is the true word of the LORD. You are mixed up in what you are saying. YOU will have your FAITH Judged. IF you do not have FAITH in Christ, you will be condemned. You can come to Christ and brag about what you have done, but he will say depart for I do not know you, it is by faith you are saved and not of works!

    One of the worse things I ever witnessed a fellow Mormon say is "I prayed to God and he said no." When he was asked if he could go out and do certain things or if he could answer the phone, that is what he said, this was MY roommate, who just got married in YOUR ''purifying'' temple. THAT IS MOCKING! Treating God as if it is a JOKE! Sarcastic or not, is bad! I never talked down to him about it, because one, he will be held accounted for it.

    Another difference between someone fully trusting their life in Christ than someone with works is that when Judgement comes, Christ will account for those who believed him, and came to him. The people who don't were surely given their chance here on earth. There is no second chance after you die.

    Leah, keep steadfast to Gods Word. Keep showing your amazing Conviction in Christ, and not allow others to think they can take your Faith away from you by replacing them with works. Which I surely already know that you do know that!

    I do not know everything. But I do know what the Bible tells me. And since we are in the New Testament Era, maybe you should do more reading around there, or maybe read the Dispensation of Grace- The amazing Mystery.

    Brian- I ask you to pray to and ask Christ into your heart, and to be your savior, and to believe that Christs blood is enough for you. (since he died for your sins anyways.)

    On a side note: It may seem as if I come out contentous, but that is not it. I come out because I hurt from my heart from people who say such things about Christ, and to ask others to pray for faith, when faith is solemnly on the person. Faith comes by the person. God does not force himself unto you. If he did, we would all be robots. He gave us free will in what we choose. That is why there is two terms for it, believers are people who solmenly believe in Christ all their hearts and minds, and the they trust IN him that HE will save them. Non-believers do not believe that Christ is not enough for you. Yes, you can believe that there is a God, Heaven and Hell, thousands of Gods or whatever, but the fact remains, is that the Believer believes (Faith) and the Non-believer does not (Good things, Good works.) I do not question your belief in Christ Brian, I do not know your heart, but if you just believe that your works will determine your final spot in heaven, you are very wrong. It is by Faith that we are saved, not of works.

    God Bless and with Passion in standing up for Christ Always,

    Jake.

  151. Thanks Jake! That is correct, I don't have to pray about something God already revealed the answer about in His word. If I'm thinking about killing someone, should I pray about it?? No! Why, because God already told us in His word that we shall not kill.

    Brian, did you even read 1 Cor 3 like I suggested?? It explains the judgment of believers (it's not the only place in the Bible but it's a good start.) Again, why do I need to question God about something He has made clear in His word?? What is the "confidence in Christ" Paul speaks of? What is the "blessed assurance?" Why does Jesus say once you are His, no one can take you from Him? Why are we told to approach the throne in confidence?? If we cannot know we are saved, what do these statements mean? Please Brian, stop asking me questions that have already been answered by God and get into the New Testament. All the answers are there! Ask God to reveal His truth to you.

    Brian can you imagine reading "by grace you are saved, not of works, it is a gift of God so no man may boast" and then going to God and saying "come on God, is that really true? Did you really mean that? It doesn't seem right to me, I'm sure there is something I can do!" When God has already told us something and made it clear, going to Him in prayer and questioning Him is the attitude that is sinful and prideful! Believing Him is called FAITH. Do you think it's easy to believe there is nothing we can do to help out our situation? As humans by nature we think we can control things and that we MUST do something! But man's way is not Gods way. And when God says He did the work for us and in Him there is rest, I trust Him. Do you?

  152. Jake-And don't worry, after the miserable existence my soul had as a Mormon always being aware of how sinful I really was, I would never let that life of bondage trap me again. Jesus has set me free and I do not desire the chains and lies of Mormon doctrine, my soul now rejoices in Jesus alone for His glory! Also don't let anyone make you feel you are being contentious, speaking truth has always offended someone. Saying you are contentious is used to silence you, but do not be silenced! Keep speaking the truth in love, I know someone is listening. After becoming saved, I was actually a bit upset that some of my Christian friends didn't share the true gospel with me, they were afraid I'd be offended. Though I may have been, I still needed to hear it! I kind of felt like they had this amazing secret that if I had known about I would have listened sooner. God knows when the timing is right for a person to accept Him, but we don't so we must share the gospel with the hope that it is the right time! You never know who will have their hearts open, and those who do WILL be grateful! Those who don't will always be offended.

  153. Brian, by asking God certain questions that have already been answered and waiting for a certain "feeling" is leaning on your own understanding. You don't think it seems right to you, so you fool yourself by conjuring feelings of affirmation to how you think it should be. When God says something, He means it. Please trust Him and not these "feelings" you get after pondering questions God already gave you the answer for. Read His WORD for truth! Do not lean on your own understanding. There is a way the seems right to man, but in the end it leads to death. Trust God and what He says. He said you are saved by faith through Jesus and you will go to heaven if you do. True story!

  154. I would also like to point out Brian that everything any of us Christians have been telling you we backed up with scripture. What we say is Biblical, and no Mormon has given any explanation to counter these ideas. Grace being a gift given by God through faith in Jesus is the biblical message, and if you read just the Bible and didn't let the men of your institution muddy the waters by adding all their doctrine to it and twist it, you'd come to the same conclusion that over a billion Christians worldwide have come too by reading their Bibles…that we are saved by faith in Jesus, that it is not of our works, but His, that Jesus is God in the flesh, God is eternal not created, and there is only heaven and hell and you will go to one or the other. While we disagree on other things, we all agree on who God is, who Jesus is and His resurrection, and how we obtain salvation, which are the major tenets of Christianity that Mormonism does not adhere to. Things have been added to change and twist the message of the Bible, which is why only Mormons, not Christians, come to the conclusion that God was a man, that we were spirit children in a preexistence, that we can become gods, etc. Those ideas are not in the Bible, thus not part of the Christian faith. The name Mormon is not interchangeable with Christian because of these extra-biblical false teachings, not to mention no explanation for all of the statements from Jesus and Paul on how we are saved.

  155. Jesus said "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life" (John 5:24). He assured us we would not be condemned if we have faith in Him. Knowing your salvation is all through the Bible, do you not believe Jesus? Was he lying, and your prophets are telling the truth? Choose this day whom you will serve!

    Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.

  156. Wow, Leah I have provided Scripture after scripture to you and Kent both that emphasize the need for works, and also to support the idea that believing in Jesus Christ does save you. I have said that many times, but you misunderstand what type of salvation that is. It is a free gift to all who. Jesus Paid that price and we all will receive immortality, He broke the bands of death for us.

    Now, you can attack me all you want for my beliefs, but please, please do not stop your beliefs at, "hey I'm good, I believe in Jesus Christ." That teaching is straight blasphemy and is abominable before God; I am compelled to speak harshly, and I cannot apologize for my words. As God as my witness, there is more required than simply believing.

    Pay close attention to verse 19:

    14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

    16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

    (James 2:14-22)

    And one example of the works required:

    "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    John 3:5

    Let me guess, Jesus is lying here, you don't have to be baptized in His name. I'm sorry I forgot that Jesus was a changing God.

    Or maybe it makes more sense that you all would believe in works, you just haven't grown beyond the first principle of the Gospel: Faith in Jesus Christ.

    And yes, you do need to pray over that statement that, "hey I'm good, I don't have to make any sacred covenants with You."

    May God bless you to see the grievous error of your ways.

  157. .

    Brian,

    You are very naughty. You must not confuse them by quoting passages of scriptures that are either not in their shaved down versions of the HB or that are in them but which they choose to ignore. These are single daceted Christians that latch on to the passage that requires of them the least faith, the least anmount of obedience, and the least anmount of trouble to make ripples in the strill waters of their chocolate-box version of what most Ch ristians take as a major event in their lives. These anti-Mormons have chosen for themselves the temprary comfort of a shallow grave and are content to lie in it firing at any one that dare suggest they ever cast their eyes over passages in the Bible where Jesus and his servants dare to suggest that there is more to being a Christian that is saved than simply simpering, "I believe Jesus," and then falling back in their soft spiritual hammocks and riding out the rest of their lives without any further inquiry into what actually constitutes 'the will of the Father' that Jesus warns us to recognise and obey by actually doing it.

    They are ignorant, or else choose to ignore the divine commandment:

    "Be ye doers of the word [of God], not hearers only!" [James 1:22]

    This version is correct according to several versions of the HB, although evidently has been excised in the An ti-Mormon's HB. To the end that they choose to ignore what is plainly there in FULL & COMPLETE

  158. Continued ………….

    versions of the Bible, as evidenced by:

    <>

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)

    But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

    King James Bible

    But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

    American King James Version

    But be you doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

    American Standard Version

    But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves.

    Douay-Rheims Bible

    But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. etc.,

    They are among those that have 'taken away from the word of God, and subject to the plagues contained in the HB.

    You see, Brian, nothing makes them angrier than Mormons that know the HB better than they know it, and that can point out to them that there is more to the Gospel of Jesus Christ than meets their eyes. This kind of foolish Minimalism is one of the major heresies of our modern world.

    You will note how quick they are to point and accuse Mormons that disagree with them [and then go on to prove the grounds of their disagreement from the Bible], are "Angry!" If I am not mistaken, I have been falsely accused of anger by several of the Mormon haters [I know!] here, wihtout any scrap of evidence that ever lose my temper. I do not, and can prove it. But, you know how children respond to what grown ups say to them when correcting their false impressions: They always accuse the adults of being cross, even when they are not.

    I thought I should get in quick and point out that you will be the next subject of their baseless accusations, and for no other reason that you show them what God says in his woprd.

    We see the fulfilment of the parable of the kings servants that are killed by the wicked, and then the sending of the Son to tell them the same thing. We note in this parable that it is the religious [I should say, the 'religiose'] that kill his servants and crucified his Son. That's just the way of the world.

    Jesus warned us that the time would come when those that killed us would think they were serving God by doing so. [John 16:2 – I am sorry that quoting Jesus makes them angry, but you know how it goes]

    "The hour will come, that every one that persecutes you and kills you, will think they serve God by so doing!"

    Note how Non-LDS Christians that know the Bible well consider this passage:

    Barnes' Notes on the Bible

    They would excommunicate them from their religious assemblies. This was often done. Compare Acts 6:13-14; Acts 9:23-24; Acts 17:5; Acts 21:27-31.

    Whosoever killeth you – This refers principally to the Jews. But is also true of the non-LDS Christians in their persecution of Christians, here and elsewhere, they supposed they are rendering acceptable service to their gods.

    Jews who persecuted the apostles regarded them as blasphemers, seeking to overthrow the temple service, and the system of religion which God had established. Thus, they supposed they were rendering service to God in putting. them to death, Acts 6:13-14; Acts 21:28-31.

    Sinners, even Christian sinners, especially the hypocrites, cloak enormous crimes under the pretence of great zeal for religion. Men often suppose, or profess to suppose, that they are rendering God service when they persecute others; and, under the pretence of great zeal for truth and purity, evince all possible bigotry, pride, malice, and uncharitableness. This is the raison d'etre often cited by Mormon Haters on this very page for their actions! They are blinded by hatred which Jesus calls a weaver';s beam.

    The beam, thicker than the arms of three men, prevents them from seeing their own sins, but the small amount of light the beam allows to enter their benighted eyes can see a particle of dust in the eye on another. Jesus knew them! That is why they focus solely on the specks of dust they chance to imagine in the eyes of Mormons. They pretend to be perfect: Mormons believe that perfection is a process that is ongoing until the end has been reached, hence Jesus' insistence that

    "He/she that ENDURES TO THE END shall be saved."

    Mark 13:13 … And everyone will hate you because you are my followers. But the one who endures

    to the end will be saved.

    Matthew 10:22 … But everyone who endures to the end will be saved. … and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. …

    Matthew 24:13 … But the one who endures to the end will be saved. … But the

    one who endures to the end will be saved. …

    I didn't invent that, Jesus said it. I don't ignore it, because Jesus said it.

    Non-LDS Christian minister/scholar, Jamieson-Fausset-Brown says in his wonderful Bible Commentary:

    13. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. Matthew (24:12) adds this important intimation: "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many"-"of the many," or "of the most," that is, of the generality of professed disciples-"shall wax cold."

    Sad illustrations of the effect of abounding iniquity in cooling the love even of faithful Christian disciples we have in the Epistle of James, written about the period here referred to, and too frequently ever since.

    This is especially true of those Christians that undertake to assail and assault other Christians that accept more of the Bible and the words Of Jesus Christ than they themselves are able to follow!

    " … but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved"

    See Mt 10:21, 22; and compare them with Heb 10:38, 39, which is a manifest allusion to these words of Christ; see also Revelation 2:10 and Luke 21:18 that adds these reassuring words:

    "But there shall not an hair of your heads perish." Our Lord had just said (see Luke 21:16) that they should be put to death; showing that this precious promise is far above immunity from mere bodily harm, and furnishing a key to the right interpretation of Ps 91:1-18 and such like.

    The people of God have suffered most from those who have been conscientious persecutors, even those that stood or stand within the periphery of Christianity of one for or another, especially apostate Christianity; and have been and still are some of the most malignant foes which true Christians have ever had , even those that have been professed ministers of the gospel, persecuting them under pretence of great zeal for what they vainly imagine to be the cause of purity and religion.

    It is no evidence of piety that a man or a woman is full of zeal against those whom he supposes to be heretics; and it is one of the best proofs that a man or a woman knows nothing of the religion of Jesus when he or she is eminent for self-conceit in his own views of orthodoxy, and firmly fixed in the opinion that all who differ from him and his sect must of course be wrong.

    Brian, this is what we face there. Let us rejoice, therefore, that we are persecuted because we place our feet in the footsteps of the Master, Jesus Christ.

    Let us also notice their failure to acknowledge the scripture where Jesus Christ, himself, says,

    "For God so loved the world that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

    Since Latter-day Saints believe Jesus Christ to be the Only Begotten Son of Almighty God, and accept him as their King, Lord, Saviour, and Exemplar, who them shall rise from the dark place and declare them unsaved because they do not part their hair the same way as another Christian?

    If faith in Jesus is the only requirement, then Latter-day Saints qualify per-eminently, and no other consideration that is introduced that those that falsely claim to speak for Almighty God, whatever it might be, shall God Almighty whose word is Law, allow get in the way of their Eternal Salvation. Who – what manner of man or woman – can say otherwise? If God makes the rules, then Mormons are saved. They are saved because they know through the unassailable witness of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ.

    With Peter they stand and declare in the face of their enemies, "Jesus, thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Amen, amen, and amen!

    God sees all.

  159. Brian, you answered NONE of my questions, you only fixated on the grace vs works debate again which we have gone around and around about already. If you believe in the bible as a whole, and using biblical context, you cannot take one verse out and apply it to mean whatever you want. In James, he tells us what pure religion in God's eyes is…caring for widows and orphans. So if you say you have faith in Christ, but you don't care about taking care of anyone else, your faith is dead because followers of Christ will care for and serve others. FAITH comes first, then WORKS. Did you read the whole book in its context?? But obviously we are getting nowhere with the faith/works thing, so please can you answer my other questions? What about being sure of salvation? What about approaching the throne in confidence? How do you reconcile your belief that you cannot be sure of going to heaven? What about Galatians 5:4?? What's the "blessed assurance?" You chose not to address any of that, just the works issue which Mormons love to push. And you have already confirmed you believe in a different gospel, so I just want to know how you interpret the "confidence" and "assurance" verses, I'm sure they mean different things in Mormonism as well.

    Also in no way did I attack you, can we please have a conversation without anyone going into victim mode? Let's be adults here please, suck it up, and stick to the topics without acting persecuted. I also do not take offense to what you said, I am not that easily offended nor am I angry about any of this despite how many times Ronnie tries to stir the pot. Only when I get called "of the devil" or "evil" will I become angry, because ugly personal attacks have no place here when none of us know each other.

    Also, pray tell where exactly in the Bible can you prove that there are 3 heavens and that "saved" only means immortality?? Neither of those ideas are in the context of the Bible, you have to go into Mormon scripture for it. While your at it, where does the Bible say exactly that God was a man? Or that we were spirit children in the preexistence? Or that we may become Gods? If you are worried about blasphemy, you might really want to think about that last one. You think just needing faith in Jesus is blasphemous in God's eyes, yet you think you could become His equal on another planet and that's NOT blasphemous?? Yikes. You have no biblical support for ANY of these beliefs. But since you think you have scriptural support for Mormonism, why don't you give me the Bible verses that support these doctrines?

  160. Jesus said you must be BORN of water and Spirit, he was speaking of being BORN AGAIN. You are born once of water from your mother, than you must be born again of the Spirit to be saved! It's so clear! Nicodemus asks how can a man enter his mothers womb a second time in verse 4, then Jesus answers in verse 5 explaining that you must be born twice, of water (birth) and of Spirit. He even clarifies it in verse 6 right after, "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." You must be born again to see the kingdom of God, which is the second "birth" or new life through the Holy Spirit. Please read John 3:1-16 to get the full context! I've had to explain this to you before, stop taking verses out of context! Read at least the paragraph before and after the verse you are reading!

  161. Leah- You are very welcome! Brian I have told countless of Mormons about those verses. Mormons have been taught their whole life to pluck out verse like plucking apples from the apple tree.

    Do they not know, that the seed must grow the tree and the tree must bare their apples? How must they know that this seed grows if they have no faith in believing that the seed will grow. Has it not been said unto you before, those who believe in Christ will be saved.

    This is is not a verse in the bible, but it is what I use as a metaphor when people take the Bible out of context. Mormons usually are the people who translate the bible incorrectly because they do NOT believe the Bible is complete. They do this again, with Matthew 18:18. Most essentially with eternal marriage when using it. But they do not read what it says next.

    "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

    These words were spoken to the apostles. Jesus had before addressed the same words to Peter, Matthew 16:19. He employs them here to signify that they all had the same power; that in ordering the affairs of the church he did not intend to give Peter any supremacy or any exclusive right to regulate it. The meaning of this verse is, whatever you shall do in the discipline of the church shall be approved by God or bound in heaven. This promise, therefore, cannot be understood as extending to all Christians or ministers, for all others but the apostles may err.

    They usually pick and choose verses like they pick and choose with their ''free agency''

  162. Leah and Jake, it seems that Mormons consider having children so that the spirit children would have bodies to go into is the most important thing they can do otherwise how can the absurdity of the fall being a good thing, that God told Adam and Eve in the garden to be fruitful and multiply but He didn't give them a way to do so unless they disobeyed Him by eating of the forbidden fruit?

    God didn't want them to disobey Him by not being fruitful and multipying and He didn't want them to disobey Him by eating of the forbidden fruit. Besides, the Bible doesn't say that they wouldn't have had children unless the fall happened that is something Mormonism conjured up. So that is one of the biggest heresies of all that they wouldn't have had children if the fall hadn't happened.

    Besides the Bible teaches that the physical comes first and after this the spiritual so, no, there was no pre existance hence no such thing as spirit children in a pre existance. Yes the all knowing God knew all along He would create us but no human being existed, either spiritually or physically, until the beginning of mankind in Genesis. The pre existance is something tacked on to the creation story in Mormon writings.

    Besides, "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," so there was no heaven for spirit children to exist in before God created heaven. Only God existed before the creation as He alone transends time and space so only He has always been truly eternal, having always existed by being God from everlasting to everlasting.

    Another thing, God couldn't have been a man first on some other planet as planets didn't exist yet either before God created them through Jesus Christ through whom He made the worlds.

    1 Corinthians 15:46

    46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

    One more thing, Mormons often talk about repentance but believing that they can become gods is being disobedient, unrepentant, as they are not giving God His just due that He is God and we never will be.

  163. Kent- You hit it right on the nail! Those are the most common scriptures that even the missionaries get caught into saying ''Oh, I never heard of that verse, or read it."

    What comes next is very obvious. Usually, they say, Let me ask my bishop or even someone else what that verse means and we will talk next time!

    The Bishop will tell them something very different and let them know that ''We" are very contentious for sharing that with you.

    But, what they usually miss, is that we are sharing THE TRUTH, that comes from the BIBLE in which you believe in to a ''certain extent''.

    They will return and continue to do what they are taught, that it is okay to LIE for God. But it is NOT okay. God does not want us to lie, but to be honest!

    When we show you those verses, you know what they mean, because they are very clear, even in the context. Usually, Christians will present the word, not just the verses. We will use just the verses if that is what the context is discussing. We do not just pluck and go. We know thats selling people short of the truth.

    It is indeed explaining that natural is before spiritual.

    If you just look past those verses and say, well.. that is not what I was taught to believe… I feel safer hearing it from a Prophet or my bishop.. so and so forth. That is the exact same thing as saying to God: Well I do not believe that, let me go to my prophet.

    God told us to follow HIM and not flesh and bone. Many Mormons spend a lot of thier time on the defense incase of certain attacks, especially when it comes to Joseph Smith.

    There is so many records, that show that he was a fraud, committed adultary, and blasmeyed against the Gospel, perverted it and boasted that he was better than Christ.

    If you read the sermons Joseph Smith gave (Journal of Discourses, History of the Church etc.)

    History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 408-409

    I am the ONLY man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days

    of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor JESUS ever did it. I BOAST that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

    A Mormon will read it and say, this is not included in what we believe in.

    THIS CAME FROM YOUR SUPPOSED PROPHET WHO BELIEVED HE WAS BETTER THAN CHRIST!!

    JS was imperfect. But claims to be better than Christ.

    Your prophet is false. Only fools follow man. You say you do not priase JS, but you still believe he was inspired by God.

  164. Leah, what do you think about there not being a heaven for spirit children to exist in before God created the heaven and that there were no planets yet for God to exist on as a man before He created them?

    Some Bible translations say Heavens and earth, I use the New King James Version that says this and, ironically, the Mormon accounts of the creation also say that God created the heavens and the earth so they would agree that there was no heaven(s) before God created it so there was no place for spirit children to exist in before God created everything.

    Also, what do you think about there being no worlds (planets) yet for God to have been a man on first that existed before He created the worlds through His son Jesus Christ. After all, through Him the worlds, not just the earth, were created and nothing that was made that was made yet before He made them.

    Genesis 1:1

    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

    John 1:1-3

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

    Mormons, it is not being contentious to point out that the heavens and the planets (worlds) didn't exist before they were created so, as I pointed out, there were no places for God to have been a man on first and there was no place for spirit children to exist in yet before those places were created. The Bible says, "test all things and hold fast to what is good" and that is what I am doing, I am doing testing things.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  165. Jake: I call how Mormons pick out bible verses and try to apply them out of context "cherry picking." Feel free to use it :) That quote from JS you posted makes me cringe, every time I've read it I feel sick to my stomach! I have never heard ANY explanations from Mormons on that one (as if there could be) so now is their chance to clarify exactly how they can follow a man that boasts to do better than Jesus? Any takers? Let's hear that excused away…

    Kent: I have abandoned all Mormon beliefs, so I do not believe in any preexistence/spirit children or worlds before God. I stick to what the Bible teaches and I'm careful about not going any further. Conjecture is not truth, and since God did not reveal everything to us it's easy to try and fill in the blanks with our imaginations, or with other people's imaginations which is the case in Mormonism. Smith came along with explanations to unanswered questions and people pounced on it because it brought them comfort, made them feel special or enlightened, or it seemed "right" to them, etc. So I take all the verses you listed literally that there was nothing before God created it…of course sometimes I imagine what happened before God created everything, but it stays in my head as just my imagination :) We will learn what has not been revealed to us once all is said and done, and until then I just trust in the Lord! Hey did you read my post to you on why I think Mormons take pointing out their false doctrine as a personal attack on them? I finally answered your question and didn't know if you saw it…

  166. Leah, yes I did read what you said about how Mormons react to things I say and it does help me understand better why they react they way they do. But, yes, we do know the answer as to what existed before God created everything in the beginning at Genesis and that is nothing existed, no planets for God to have been a man on first, no heaven for spirit children to exist in, the bible tells us this.

    Also, the Bible does not say there even is such a thing as spirit children and that is good enough for me.

  167. It is far easier to find comfort in the easy road. It has always been such.

    I commend you all for your faith in Jesus Christ, but I cannot commend you for refusing to even ponder the words of the Savior and seek out more than merely having faith in Jesus Christ. To read the Bible and come to the conclusion that all we need is Faith and that the judgement doesn't have any effect on believers (they are already saved) is astonishing to me. It is like saying there is only one commandment.

    And if you believe that there is only one commandment. . . there is nothing I can say to you to change your mind.

    It is only when we forsake all that we are ready to embrace the truth. It is when we realize our nothingness before God that we then seek out His counsel. He speaks to His children and to say that that is relying on your feelings is a clear indication to me that you have not forsaken all and vowed to be led by Him. He is ready and waiting with His hand stretched out to all His children waiting for them to ask and to be lead.

    May you come to the point where you rely on the counsel of your Father and not on your own interpretations.

  168. Brian: you still didn't answer my questions. Can you?? Unfortunately as a Mormon I never heard anyone speak of the "good news" or the "blessed assurance" or approaching the throne with confidence in Christ, or what Jesus meant when He said nothing could take us from His hand once we were His. It's not discussed, even though they are all biblical terms dealing with our assurance of salvation.

    I gave the biblical support for the judgment of believers…I take it you still didn't read any of the scriptures given, because it is you who lean on not only your own understanding, but the interpretations of the men you call "prophets." Why don't you crack open your Bible, be like the Bereans, and search the Word yourself to see if what we say is true.

    Under the New Covenant, according to Jesus, there are 2 commandments Brian. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Those are the 2 commandments we have been given under the New Covenant straight from the mouth of Jesus. Do you dispute this fact, because it's plainly in the Bible as well or do you listen to your prophets who tell you that you must pay tithing, do temple rituals, keep the WOW, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc…etc! Jesus never said those things, your MEN did.

  169. You shouldn't come to assumptions on things you think you know Brian. You assume that Christians have one commandment. But we do not. Christ said he wanted us to do many things, but the most important ones were 2 that Leah listed.

    The difference between the prophets in the Mormon Church and the Prophets of the OT, is that your ''prophets'' only give morals, and sermons in opinions (which if you have an opinion, it is most likely what you truly believe in- which means you would also have to add Journal of Discourses and History of the Church to your ''Books". Prophets of the OT gave PROPHECIES. Prophets are those who predict and they ALL come to PASS. In which Joseph Smith has failed to do so.

    Who would you rather believe, Jesus Christ (Bible) Or Joseph Smith (BOM, PGP, DC, HC, JD) Like I said, JS was clever, but he was not THAT Clever. What mean is, he was far from ''better'' than Christ.

    You think you can serve two Masters. Find a verse in the Bible that says you can? I know there is one that says that you Cannot!

    " but I cannot commend you for refusing to even ponder the words of the Savior and seek out more than merely having faith in Jesus Christ"

    Really Brian? Really..? What do the words of Christ say? Did he say, Pray for your faith and Do all the works as possible? No HE did not! He said, believe in me, and you will be saved. Love the LORD, your God, with all your mind and soul.

    Since God is powerful, he can see your intentions. But you Mormons, Yes you Brian, refuse to believe he does, because you do not TRUST that Christs blood is enough for you. You may think you have Faith, but you only have works. Actually you do have Faith, but Faith only in your works.

    Christains can answer your questions, straight answered and prove it, and back up scriptures, we do not beat around the bush about something, you only read and find something else that you can debate on, instead of answering the question yourself. SO

    What do you think of the verse:

    1 Corinthians 15:46

    46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

    Tell me, which part of that verse is NOT translated CORRECTLY? You can't dispute that Brian or Ronnie, because it is clear, and it is also what God said. If you want to be rebellious against God, be my guest. But those who are against God, stand with the Devil.

    J.

  170. "You shouldn’t come to assumptions on things you think you know"

    And that pretty much says it all doesn't it.

    I have said many times that I receive my answers from God, you have contended all we need for answers are the Bible.

    I will stick with my open communication with my Heavenly Father and Savior Jesus Christ, and you guys can stick with your Biblical understandings that the Lord Jesus Christ does not speak with us and all we need is the Bible.

    You have said that many times, and that's fine for you, but I have only tried to help you see that there is a ton more than the Bible. Heavenly Father has revealed His gospel to millions on the earth and He continually speaks to His children every day.

    To say, "all you need is the Bible," is to say that Heavenly father and Jesus Christ do not constantly reveal truths to Their followers and grant revelations. In essence you have said that Christ spoke in the Bible and now he's been quite for 2 thousand years. He speaks today, and I'm saddened that you're missing it.

  171. Actually, that is where you are wrong Brian. We are all spoken by Christ. You refuse to believe that Christ speaks unto you. You even denied it by beating around the bush about it. Out of all that, you had to pick up the assumptions? Wow, talk about being blind. I asked you a question, and you couldn't even answer it. Pretty clear for who you are.

    We do need the Bible, but we also believe Christ speaks unto us and not prophets.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways SPOKE in time PAST to the fathers by the PROPHETS, 2 has in these last days SPOKEN to us by HIS SON, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.

    The Bible tells us, that Christ speaks unto us. We believe it because it is the word of God, not only that, but Christ has revealed things in our lives THROUGH him.

    You are the one in the wrong. You are not catching the point. If you read any of the posts way back, we have showed that in the last days he speaks through us through his Son not his prophets. You cannot make us see anything. We already know what we believe. We are not the ones that believe that Believe the Bible isnt Complete and that it is not Translated Correctly. Only a Mormon would believe in such those things.

    He does speak to us today. You shouldn't be sadden, we are not missing anything. We love God, we Love Jesus, we love others. God has not been quite. You think you have the ONLY power because you have a so called priesthood that in untransferable since CHRIST IS LIVING! he is the High Priest. Thats why you still see miracles outside your ''perfect'' Church.

    I am sadden for you, who follow flesh and bone and serve more than two masters. It is a shame that you cannot see that point. Brian, maybe you should be the first Mormon to actually try not to avoid our questions and focusing on answering them. If you can't just say you can't.

    Im sadden for you because you still believe, Joseph Smith was inspired and a true prophet even though he claimed he did better than Jesus, and lied about Polygamy, hid it. Who shot and killed two officers the day he died. He Murdered before he died, and didn't have time to repent for it. (newspaper) , was found as a fraud in court (Police records.) You believe that you were spirits before you were natural (Contradicts God) Believe in three personages (Contradicts God, only ONE God) You follow a Gospel that was preached unto by man and shown by angel( Warned about, by God) Believe in Marriage eternal (Against Christs Teaching) You believe it is work the most and not by faith alone. (Against Christs Teaching.) You do not believe His blood is enough for you (Christ tells us that it is "Dispensation of Grace") Believe in a Heavenly Mother (Against what God says, he knows of no other God, heavenly mother cannot exist!, and ONE God.)

    So do not say that I don't believe that God does not speak to us, and that God is quiet, he works in mysterious ways.

    I rather believe in Christ than your "Prophets" who only tell morals and not prophecies.

    I promise you, after I say that, Kent and Leah will agree. We know that God speaks to us today. But Though his SON. Not Men, HIS SON!!!

    Just keep doing the same thing. Keep assuming you know EVERYTHING about Christianity. It is apparent that you do not. You base Christianity off of assumptions. With Leah and I, we know enough about Mormonism BECAUSE we used to be as brainwashed as you were. I am so glad that I found the truth again, found and closer to Christ than I have ever been in my ENTIRE LIFE.

    The Gospel is simple, but there is much more to it. You learn more every day. Key word: Learn.. NOT DO MORE.

    You can DO all you want. But it has already been DONE for you. You refuse to believe that Christ said that. Why not trust that he said believe in him and you are saved. Christ does not trick people like the people who tried to trick him about Marriage in MATTHEW!

  172. Is there a Mormon handbook that tells you if you can't answer questions, stall with one of these:

    1. Bare your testimony

    2. Say you get your answers directly from God, so no one can argue with you

    3. Talk about how we have a prophet today that God speaks through

    4. Focus on how others don't believe God speaks to prophets today

    I've heard all these time and time again, Brian used these diversions earlier in the conversation when asked about what gospel he would share with a dying man. Can you just answer my questions? You also didn't comment about how you had taken those verses out of context after reading them in context which I provided. Do you still cling to what you have been told they mean by men, regardless of what the biblical context says??

    For Kent and Jake, watch this short video: http://defendingcontending.com/2010/08/02/cultoon
    This is where I got the idea to ask Mormons the dying man question, and sadly you find you get the same responses/diversions. It exposes that they really have no good news, as Brian confirmed above.

  173. Oh I forgot #5. Argue how your definition of salvation is different than Christians' definition.

  174. JESUS USED THE OLD TESTAMENT! He quoted it, believed it, used it as His authority, said it prophesied of Him, used it in His teachings…He never questioned it or criticized it! But it's not good enough for you? If it's what Jesus used as His authority, it's what I will use as well. When Jesus quoted scripture, He confirmed it was God inspired and could be trusted.

    As Jake pointed out, we believe in personal revelation and we know God speaks to us, He is just never going to tell us anything that contradicts His word! The Bible is what we use to measure truth. If a spirit tells me or I feel led to murder my husband, I'm not going to listen to it because I know from God's revealed truth that it could not be from God! You are trying to divert us from the fact that you can't answer the questions/can't refute the context of the scriptures given with this silly argument. You go ahead and stick to the spirits telling you that God was a man and that you can become a god on your own planet and that you have a heavenly mother. Those spirits are not of God, His word confirms that fact. You say we use "just the Bible" further demeaning God's word as if it were not enough that He compiled a book written over 1500 years by over 40 people who didn't even know each other but yet they all are accurate and compliment one another. Sorry God, Brian needs more…he needs men to tell him what to do, what to pay, what to eat/drink…your word wasn't good enough even though it was good enough for Jesus.

  175. "Why doesn’t God have a living prophet today?"

    Yes Jake I agree that God today talks to us through His Son so, besides having prophecies that didn't come true, Joseph Smith and any subsequent so called living prophets have come in a time when God no longer speaks His prophets as shown in Hebrews 1.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

    Jake, regarding whether I live in Utah or not, I have lived in Southern California my whole life and some of the wildest people I have met were Mormons who were great at hiding things from their families and their church.

    One guy in particular stands out, he is about four years older than me and some of the vile stuff I learned I learned from him and he was always hiding things from his family.

    One thing that stands out is when his family would be fasting, I think they did it once a month so that they could give the money they would have spent on food for the day to the church and/or to charity, he would hide food at my house.

    He would sneak over to my house and one time in particular I remember him taking some roast beef out of our refrigerator and taking a big bite out it with a comment, with a big grin on his face, of, "ah, roast beef!"

    He was about fourteen at that time but I don't know if he went on a mission or not as he moved out of our neighborhood before he was old enough to go on one but if he did, and if he went to the temple, I think he probably lied to get his recommend and, if he did, probably his bishops didn't catch on and if not, why not? As aren't they supposed to be able to read what is in someone's heart?

    The reason I think he lied to get into the temple is because he wanted to please his family and he didn't want them to see that he had a wild side so if he hadn't changed by the time he would be going to the temple, he probably told everyone what they wanted to hear.

  176. My last post should read that God no longer speaks through His prophets not, God no longer speaks His prophets.

    Brian and Ronnie, you might not be listening to what God's word, His only word, the Bible, is telling you, but others are so to them I say, keep questioning what your church is telling you and test all things, using the Bible as your guide, and hold fast to what is good.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21

    21 Test all things; hold fast what is good

  177. I can't answer your questions because every time I write something you guys drop a firestorm of massive comments. I would love to have the time to get to everything, you would just need to give me that time.

    As for Leah's interpretation of john 3:5, it is laughable:

    "You are born once of water from your mother, than you must be born again of the Spirit to be saved!"

    Really? Let me give you the Biblical interpretation, straight from Jesus Christ Himself.

    "19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen"

    (Matt 28:19-20)

    "14. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

    15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

    16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

    17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"

    (Matt 3:14-17)

    To fulfill all righteousness, interesting phrase if a baptism of water is not required.

    Moving on to the baptism of fire, or being born of the spirit:

    "17. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

    18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

    19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost."

    (Acts 8:17-19)

    "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

    (Acts 19:6)

    Now I'm sure your personal interpretations from the Bible are yours, but let me just say to you again that you guys are not the ones that are claiming Jesus Christ speaks to His children today, you rely on the teachings of the Bible. I rely on the teachings of the Holy Ghost which Jesus Christ Himself said would tell you the truth of all things.

    I have been Baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and have received the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Now I know you cannot show me a scripture that says we don't have to be baptized by water and by the spirit. Your scriptures implying that all we need to do is believe on Jesus Christ are weak and misleading, because after all there are only two commandments Love God and Love your neighbor. What you don't understand is that those are the great commandments and when we keep those two we will be driven to keep the rest. Just like if we have faith in Jesus Christ we will be driven to keep His commandments and receive Eternal life by our faith driven actions.

    I cannot make it any clearer than I have over my last posts laden with scriptures directly laying out the importance of Faith in Jesus Christ leading us to Baptism by water and receiving the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Faith without Works is dead, as works without faith are also dead. You do not believe me, but one day you will finally believe that I am preaching the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    In His Holy name I bid you adieu,

    Amen

  178. .

    .

    Only Two Commandments? An Anti-Mormon Claim!

    Either the Bible is the word of God or else it isn't.

    Mormons [Latter-day Saints] believe that it is, and they use the whole range of God's written word to find out about God.

    What other Christians find to do with the Bible is their personal business, but they ought not to rush to judgement about something like the Holy Bible when their posts reveal they know too little about it.

    Christians of all the thousands of contending denominations consistently and regularly pull each other apart and have in times past maimed and slaughtered each other in the Name of Jesus. Now they seek to do the same to the Bible, that is, they maim and slaughter it. Here’s just one example of that internecine practice:

    In one post, I read that "For ‘Christians’ there are only two commandments."

    That unsupported claim is a severe mutilation of what Christ actually said.

    He did not say there were ‘only two commandments.’

    You are guilty of mangling the very words that came out of the mouthy of Jesus Christ the Only Begotten Son of God and in doing so have failed to assume upon yourselves the Berean mantle that one of you hypocritically suggests Latter-day Saints should do.

    Therefore, the challenge is returned to you to see whether you are equal to it, and to allow you to discover for EXACTLY what Jesus DID say about the commandments when he was asked the trick question by hypocritical Anti-Jesusians.

    I guarantee you that you will not find Jesus saying anything like ‘There are only two commandments for Christians.”

    If Jesus had said, “There are only two commandments and these are they … ” then your case would stand a fair chance of being an honest one.

    However, when you take the actual words of the Son of God and distort them into saying something that he DID NOT SAY, then you have a far bigger problem with truth than any kind of matter and nonsense that you try to visit on the heads of Latter-day Saint Christians.

    Let us to the law and testimony – “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” Isaiah 8:20 – to find the real answer. If the quote, ‘There are only two commandments’ is found in the mouth of Jesus, then you speak the truth. However, by the same measure of truth, if those words are not found in the mouthy of Jesus, then you are liars. That’s what the LORD told his prophet Isaiah [see 8:20].

    Jesus was asked a question by those that wanted to catch him in a verbal trap so they could continue their hostility towards him and his novel teachings and show their own religiose clique, those designated by Christ as hypocrites, that Jesus was a fraud. The question was “Which [of all God’s commandments] is the greatest [most important]?”

    Like the faithful Bereans, we shall read the words of God’s library:

    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

    39 And the second [greatest commandment in the law] is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    That is what Jesus said. Jesus did not say that these two were the only ones that believers must obey. He did say that on these two commandments, all other laws and prophetic utterances were contingent on them. So that one that is perfect in observing the greatest and the second greatest will not be found wanting in faithfulness to all other essential commandments of God.

    The rest of the commandments and prophetic pronouncements are, according to Jesus, subordinate to the greatest and the second greatest commandments. One that loves God as God commanded us to love him, and that loves his neighbour as much as he loves himself, will, therefore not be found wanting in the observance of any other of God’s commandments.

    From what Jesus intends us to learn from his answer it is a long stretch indeed to have him be made to say that there are ONLY two commandments! That is gross, cynical manipulation that has no part in Christianity and will not be used as a tool of any that follow Christ as Christ intends.

    Who then, among Christians of all hues, will be found making such a claim that is not Biblical, not Jesusian, not Pauline, not Johannine, and is not found in the mouths of any of God’s prophets and apostles, and not in the mouth of Jesus Christ himself?

    The answer to that question is, “A Minimalist!” What is a Minimalist? A Christian Minimalist is a member of a New Religious Movement [NRM] that reorganises Biblical and Traditional Christianity into a form characterised by extreme simplification of faith, form, and ritual. I can also be described as reductivism, or as rejective Christianity because it accepts and employs the fewest and barest essentials or elements of the Christian faith.

    Minimalists are rejected by the great mass of Christians for whom the traditional forms still matter and also by those that rely on the Bible for their functions and forms that they designate as essentially Christian. It should be noted that Minimalists use much of the same language as traditional or historic Christianity but their meanings are different. Because of their cynical reduction in the tenets of essential Christianity, the world-wide family of Christians regards them as a modern heretical cult.

    Of course, one of the Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints states categorically,

    “We claim the privilege of worshipping almighty God according to the dictates of our own consciences. We also allow all men the same privilege: let them worship who, what, or how they may.”

    Thus, Latter-day saints have no problem with Minimalists pursuing whatever God and whatever Gospel they wish, whether it is one of the strange new gospels of which Paul warns the Galatians, or whether it is compromised with dubious anti-Biblical Eastern philosophical notions, or even if it is evident that they latch on to one or two proof-texts from the Bible and use them as if they were all that the Bible ever says.

    While that may be their besetting tragedy, it is within the economy of God Almighty to allow them the moral agency to do it. It is to God they will answer and not to the Latter-day Saints.

    However, they are unable to allow any other body of believers to do as they wish to do. Evidence shows that the most cynical and obdurate cults of Minimalists are the driving force behind the most opprobrious and vocal of Anti-Mormons. Whilst Minimalists may be gathered in discrete and semi-independent cults around the country or world, their ideas are remarkable plagiarised from one or two sources that have been cogently rebutted for more than a century.”

    Short on content, they are Big on irrational accusations and will routinely accuse Mormons of having persecution complexes, of being angry, or being ignorant, and of a dozen other mantraic charges that issue from every minimalist coven regardless of the time and distance that separates them. This resorting to a fixed number of accusations, pin-points their lack of originality and their dependence on hate groups that have preceded them and have set the stage for their assaults. Thus, unable to answer cogent rebuttals they descend into name calling, and do so often but without any indication that they have heard the rebuttals from whatever groups they happen to be attacking at the moment.

    One of the most common features of such attacks is the frequent claims by minimalists to have been former members of the denominations they attack. However, closer attention to the nature of their charges and the analysis of their syntax brings forth compelling evidence that they have not been members, but they have ostensibly to bolster their claims to speak with authority. When they are exposed, they fall silent or else take up the attack with a different screen name.

    Recently an Anti-Mormon Minimalist on this page claimed to be a member of the Aaronic priesthood and to have in his possession his temple recommend. This is an impossibility. Those holding the Aaronic priesthood can enter the baptistries of temples to be the subject in proxy baptisms, but the Recommend for these occasions is a “Group Recommend” that is always held by a leader that holds the higher priesthood. This is poof positive that Minimalists resort to telling lies to create the impression that they have been members of the LDS Church when most of them never were.

    Why, then, do they do it? Jesus provides the answer:

    “ … the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.” [John 16:2]

    These Minimalist Anti-Mormons think they are serving God by their lies and pretences. That’s why they do to. They have forgotten that God commands them not to kill, and that God also commands them to love their neighbours as they love themselves. That they choose to ignore God on both counts is their tragedy. God will judge them. They think they are saved so that it does not matter now what they do, who they kill, or lie about, because God will overlook all these wickedness, and hence, their salvation is secure.

    They do not know that this is not the case and that the Bible contains a dire warning for those that feel secure in their salivation that so believe, falsely, they can now ignore God and his commandments. Two passages will show their confidence is false.

    First, 2 Peter 2:

    9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

    15 Which HAVE FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY AND ARE GONE ASTRAY, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

    17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; TO WHOM THE MIST OF DARKNESS IS RESERVED FOREVER.

    18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

    19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, AND THEIR LATTER END IS WORSE WITH THEM THAN THE BEGINNING.

    21 FOR IT HAS BEEN BETTER FOR THEM NOT TO KNOW THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIVERED UNTO THEM.

    22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. [2 Peter 2]

    The second passage repeats the dire warning in a different style, but the warning is no less strong

    1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptised unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

    6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

    8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

    9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

    10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

    11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    12 WHEREFORE, LET HIM/HER THAT THINKETH HE/SHE STANDETH TAKE HEED LEST HE/SHE FALL! [1 Corinthians 10]

    The word of God does not say ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED [OSAS], but “take heed lest you fall!”

    Finally, one Minimalist Anti-Mormon makes the stupendous claim that God does not speak through prophets these days, but only always directly to individual men. This is the claim of the Mystic that claims privilege from God the he denies to others. Who is there among men that will dictate to Almighty God what he may or may not do? The Bible is plain when it says that it is unwise for a mere mortal to elbow God out of the way so that he or she can make a pronouncement that contradicts what Omniscience says.

    A limited and imperfect mortal sinner says: “God does not speak to prophets today!”

    Almighty God, the Great Jehovah, says, “Surely the LORD God will do nothing except he reaveleth his will to his servants the prophets!” [Amos 3:7]

    Take your pick: will you believe the Perfect One or will you follow the counsel of a trembling and unwise sinner?

    You choose for yourself, and leave me to choose for myself without having to endure your baseless criticisms.

    Deal?

  179. Ronnie said, "Either the Bible is the word of God or else it isn’t.

    Mormons [Latter-day Saints] believe that it is, and they use the whole range of God’s written word to find out about God."

    Yes, either the Bible is the word of God or it isn't and while Mormons, in practice, use it as the word of God but incomplete, officially the Mormon Church brings into question that it hasn't been translated correctly may I remind you what your church officially says about the Bible, from Mormon.org, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."

    So yes, either the Bible is the word of God and it has been translated correctly, or is isn't the word of God and it hasn't been translated correctly. So if, as I stated, the Mormon Church really believed the Bible is the word of God but that it is incomplete and there are other words of of God also, then why doesn't the church officially say this?

  180. Ronnie, there is not such thing as LDS Christians. There is only LDS Mormons. LDS Christians would need to believe that The Bible IS the Word of God, and that IT is translated correctly.

    Brian, I gave you one simple question to answer, in which you did not. I gave you time and all in return you tell me that one question is a firestorm?

    Ronnie- Are you NOT Guilty of perverting the Gospel? Why are you so quickly removed from the Gospel that Christ teach unto all nations. Has it not been said, that in Jesus you are saved.

    You both mistakenly forget that In the time of the BOM was written, that the Dispensation of Grace Era came after. So there was a revelation, but a revelation from Christ himself, not of your prophets.

    Why do you work for a Gift that the LORD has given to you?

    Again, your faith is only of works, and you are such fools to believe in yourselves. Selfish people.

    Joseph Smith was not a prophet, was not inspired from God, who became a murderer, committed adultery, distorted the Gospel, mislead his children, and you are right, JS did something that Christ didn't

    HE NEVER TURNED HIS CHILDREN AWAY FROM GOD. This is what Joseph Smith did. He lied, he was a proven fraud. He spent one revelation on man (Oliver Pratt trustworthy). Why did not Joseph Smith name others. God would reveal to him that only ONE man was not to be trustworthy. God said NO MAN is trustworthy, even Joseph Smith himself.

    Why do I say that? because he is clear, we shouldn't follow flesh and bone, but to follow The LORD, your GOD.

    Since you TRUST in Joseph Smith, you are trusting in Men, and in Men is to err.

    Like I said, I rather believe what Jesus Christ says, than what any of your ''Prophets'' have to say.

  181. .

    Jake,

    You say the wildest things. I AM an LDS Christian. I know better than you will ever know who Jesus Christ is to me and what my faith in him is. Please don't try to sit in God's judgement seat and say things you cannot possibly know. It makes you look mo9re than a little unchristian.

    You say that the Bible IS translated correctly. What you don't say is how you think you know it is. Latter-day Saints are not the only Christians that make the qualification about textual errors in the Bible. Since you appear not to be aware of them I can only presume that you are not all that familiar with the Bible.

    It was the Rabbis that first raised the question of what are known as textual difficulties and pointed out several errors that they needed to correct. If you know the Bible and its history then you will know that. Today's Christians that have taken the time and made the effort to become familiar with the biblical texts have come to the same conclusions, and they make the same qualification that the Bible IS the word of God only where it IS translated or interpreted correctly, and that where it has been incorrectly translated, copied, or interpreted then it most decidedly IS NOT God's word.

    I am probably wasting my time even trying to get you to see even one of these areas that are known to be wrong, because you have adopted a whole mindset that renders you incapable of exercising your own critical faculties when it comes to the Bible, for which there is no biblical sanction. The Bible does not sanction accepting what is written in a version of the Bible if it strays from the original monograph and proper Christians, even those not in the Church of Jesus Christ know that and approve of the position that Latter-day Saints have in relation to the need for the versions to reflect the original versions of the original biblical monographs. Since you have never laid your eyes on one of them and since I doubt that you have any facility in the Biblical languages, Classical Hebrew, Aramaic, Ethiopic, Koine, etc, you would not know whether English versions reflect what is pro;per or not.

    One such version rendered the seventh mitzvah of the Decalogue as 'Thou SHALT commit adultery."

    The negative was omitted, either by careless typesetter or by a careless translator, and it made what came to be known as "The Wicked Bible," and also as "The Adulterer's Bible."

    Your position, since you have no qualifier for accuracy or correctness is that that version stands as the word of God and therefore you are commanded by God to commit adultery. Perhaps you can stretch yourself to allow me to disagree with your understanding on that, and perhaps if I can show you other errors then you will abandon your position that every version of the Holy Bible is 100% correct and accurate. Perhaps. Let us see whether you have good sense and use the intellect that God has blessed you with.

    Lorenzo Valla, a great scholar, not only discovered that the Christian Church had employed a cynical forgery, "The Donation of Constantine, "to make the spurious claim that the emperor Konstantin had bequeathed all his earthly power to the Church, but he also applied his energies to the text of scripture and raised several indisputable points that brought into question the accuracy of the Vulgate as a translation of the Hebrew text, and also of the Greek text of the New Testament.

    However, it was the Great Christian scholar and reformed Desiderius Erasmus that pointed out not only more inaccuracies than Valla had found, but also pointed out in detail some of the differences a more accurate text made to Christian belief.

    Moreover, these men were not only NOT members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which I assume you knew, but they were mainstream Christians that recognised, as did the Jewish Rabbins, that there were faults and inaccuracies in the Vulgate, and that the Vulgate was the foundation document for the Authorised Version, sometimes called the "King James' Version."

    Some Christians will brook no other version that the original 1611 King James, although the vast majority are unaware the at the present text of the AV is an updated version from the 1611 one. Why am I telling you all this? I am doing so to demonstrate that you do not know your own Bible!

    I am not attacking the Bible. I am showing the futility and weakness of that class of ill-informed Christians that stand in the inerrantist corner. Telling the truth is not an attack if what is said is true. No one does God, Jesus, or the Holy Bible any good by telling or believing things about it that are demonstrably untrue. God does not what Christians led astray. He does want them to have as perfect a text of his ho9ly and inspired word as is reasonably possible. God knows where the errors are, and he expects Christians to find them and either explain them or leave them alone.

    We can, both of us, be absolutely certain that the original monographs written by inspired men said exactly what God wanted to say. We can also be sure that where errors are found in the texts that not only is God is not responsible for them, but that he does not expect us to be bound by them.

    The Talmudic rabbis were vividly aware of the kinds of corruptions likely to be 'accidentally' introduced by copyists as evidenced by their cautionary advice given to the professional copyists of their time, and their own corrections of faulty passages in the Hebrew texts leads us to the same conclusion. The Rabbis laid down a rule in the Babylonian Talmud Ketubot 19b that not more than thirty days were to elapse between the discovery of an error in a Tora scroll and its correction. If the Rabbis had no experience of such errors they would not have made a rule to cover it and its emendation. The myth than Hebrew scriptural copyists, the Soferim, were without fault is not born out in experience. It is simply a myth that history shows not to have been so.

    The range of textual criticism is not restricted to the identification and elimination of errors in the Hebrew Bible. Variant traditional readings account for a considerable number of discrepant readings found in the duplicated texts of the Hebrew Bible itself. There is not one, single, unvaried script in the Hebrew Bible, but many variants. These variants are seen in the rendering of ancient versions and even in readings of the Qumran texts. The myth that the DSS are word for word the same as the Massoretic Text is naother baseless myth generated by inerrantists that have painted themselves into and unenviable corner and can only survive by burying their heads into the floor of a Geniza. It is sad to see adults behave in this self-destructive way, but it is a commonplace among so-called conservative Christians. Why conserve that which God rejects?

    A further phenomenon that is present in some correct biblical texts are alterations made on purpose by Rabbis. A number of these have been faithfully recorded, so that we do not need to enter into a dispute about whether they are there or not. They really do exist!

    Their aim was to purge from the text by removing words that they came to consider offensive by the substitution of another, inoffensive, word. In some instances the words in the Bible text were actually expunged and replaced. The Talmudic Rabbis further drew attention to errors by a directive that the the corrections they have supplied along side the word objected to, which has been retained, is to be made by the reader. That is, they must not read what is written on the page, but what they are directed to read instead.

    Some modern Hebrew texts are offered in which the original incorrect words are preserved without alteration. Kittel's famous and widely accepted by the Christian world critical edition of the Hebrew Bible placed the Massoretic textual notes at the bottom of the pages. A practice that is followed to day in proper study Bible used by Biblical scholars, but of which pew Christians are often totally ignorant. Kittel acknowledged textual errors, but inerrantists, being for the most part unscholarly, never have their eyes rest on his major contributions to Christian Biblical scholarship. More's the shame.

    It should be recognised that when the individual books of the Old Testament were wriottem Hebrew was a living spoken language. As such it possessed in both range and vocabulary and grammatical structure much wider than we have gleaned from the literature preserved in the Hebrew Bible.

    In recent times, Hebrew words and grammatical formulations whose meanings had been lost have been recovered through the comparative study of all the Semitic languages, of which Hebrew is a member. Many words and phrases which were at one time unintelligible and consequently condemned as faulty have proved subsequently to have been in normal usage current in Classical, which is Biblical, Hebrew. Their meanings had been lost either because of their isolated usage in the Bible monographs,. or because of their close resemblance to other Hebrew words that were thus misidentified with familiar Hebrew words.

    If, after reading this prefatory essay you are willing to be shown some textual errors in the Bible that cannot be denied by an honest man, especially one that says he is a Christian of any sort, then I will post some of the most simple ones for you to see for yourself. I do hope that you will not run away with your fingers in your ears singing falalalalalalal until you are out of earshot.

    I am, prepared to set out for you examples from the Bible that are real. The fact of their being present does not diminish God nor does it diminish his word. It plainly shows that adopting a position of 100% inerrancy is a demonstrably false position.

    I hope that you will take note that while 8AF adds a qualification, that not only is it a sensible one according to top-notch reputable and learned Jewish and Christian Bible Scholars, but that other than castigating we Latter-day Saints for holding that position, you and your clique continually fail to show one passage of the Bible that Latter-day Saints hold to be wrong. Why is that, Jake?

    Now put away your pointed stick and let your mind and intellect do the fighting for you.

    :)

  182. That last was a conflation to Kent and Jake,. Each of them will see which part applies to his post. I regret any confusion that may have caused.

  183. Jake:

    "Ronnie- Are you NOT Guilty of perverting the Gospel? "

    That's right, Jake. I am, NOT guilty of perverting the Gospel. Well spotted.

  184. .

    A Consideration Of Some Anti-Mormon False Doctrines Presented On This Page

    Responses are enclosed in square brackets, thus: […].

    [An Anti-Mormon claims]: “I read the word of God and know exactly what it says about being baptized.” [This is an extremely bold statement, but whether it is accurate is easy to discover, and this is what we will do: we will turn to the Bible in which she claims an expert level of knowledge and check on the veracity of her statement against what the Bible actually says.

    [If she is right, then we must all bow to her superior knowledge. However, if she is found to be wrong, she will need to reconsider her position and make the necessary adjustment to a proper one.]

    [Unfortunately, the Anti-Mormon goes on to prove that she DOES NOT know what exactly the word of God says about being baptised, but there is an easy way of finding out whether she has an authentic or a faulty understanding of what Jesus intended to convey when he spoke to Nicodemus. We do, however, intend to be completely fair to her and so let we must appeal to what the Prophet Isaiah called ‘the law and testimony’ and see what it actually does say and also see what it means and whether what it means can, by any means, be made to square with what this particular Anti-Mormon insists it means. I do not say this in any spirit of unkindness, although the Anti-Mormon often resorts to angry outbursts, even against a respondent whose only evident passion is calmness and an evident love of his Saviour Jesus and an equal passion and faithfulness for the inspired word of God.]

    [We begin by reading the words of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ on the matter, but, so that we are judged to be fair and just we will also appeal to NON-LDS Christian Bible scholars, theologians, and divines to assist us in understanding the exact meaning or meanings of the very words Jesus used. If the Christian world understands them the same way as do Latter-day Saint Christians, then we can be reasonably sure that we are on the right track. If we find some NON-LDS Christians stand on either side of a divide on the actual meaning of the words of Jesus, then we can be sure that the Christian world is divided and that they that disagree stand apart from those that accept “One Lord, One Faith, and One baptism.”]

    [The verse under scrutiny is found in the Fourth Gospel, called by some The Gospel according to St John]:

    John3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him [Nicodemus], Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    [The term ‘born again’ Jesus uses, according to John’s Greek, is γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν.

    [Expositors are divided on the rendering of ἄνωθεν, some translating is as, ‘from above,’ others, ‘again’ or ‘anew.’ The same Greek word is used in the following variations in the New Testament, where it occurs thirteen times as follows:

    1. “From the top” in Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; John 19:23.

    2. “From above” in John 3:31; John 19:11; James 1:17; James 3:15, James 3:17.

    3. “From the beginning” in Luke 1:3; Acts 26:5, and

    4. “Again” in Galatians 4:9, where it is accompanied by πάλιν, ‘again.’

    [In favor of the rendering “from above,” it is urged that it corresponds to John's habitual method of describing the work of spiritual regeneration as a birth from God (John 1:13; 1 John 3:9; 1 John 4:7; 1 John 5:1, 1 John 5:4, 1 John 5:8); and further, that it is Paul, and not John, who describes it as a new birth.

    [In favor of the other rendering, ‘again,’ it may be said: 1. that ‘from above’ does not describe the ‘fact’ but the ‘nature’ of the new birth, which in the logical order would be stated after the fact, but which is first announced if we render it ‘from above.’

    [If we translate it as ‘anew’ or ‘again,’ then the logical order is preserved, the nature of the birth being described in John 3:5. 2.

    [Nicodemus clearly understood the word as meaning ‘again,’ since, in John 3:4, he translated it into ‘a second time.’ (v. 3), ‘born again.

    [Canon Westcott calls attention to the traditional form of the saying in which the word ἀναγεννᾶσθαι, which can ONLY mean ‘reborn,’ is used as the equivalent of γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, or ‘Born Again,’ however, does not give the exact force of the word, which is rather in the sense of ‘anew,’ or ‘afresh.’ We ought, therefore, if we wish to be exact, to render it “except a man be born anew.” A phrase that occurs only in John's Gospel.

    [It is essential to know that John the Beloved habitually uses the literary device of ‘misunderstanding.’ For example, Nicodemus misunderstands at first, but that is John’s way of bringing the reader (you and me, for example) closer to revealing who Jesus really is, the Messiah, by a series of small steps, each one closer to the truth. That is why Nicodemus starts off by apparently misunderstanding what Jesus intends, but he is led, step by step by Jesus to ultimately arrive at the truth of what Jesus is saying. What Jesus is saying is so important for us to know and understand that he has Nicodemus pass through each stage of misunderstanding that a reader or a seeker or a cynic might hold, until the person of Jesus the Only Begotten of the Father stands before us inviting us to follow him into the kingdom of heaven.[

    [It is ESSENTIAL that we understand and accept that Jesus is unfolding to Nicodemus THE PROCESS BY WHICH A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN – THAT IS, THROUGH WHICH HE OR SHE MAY BE SAVED. He is not merely entertaining him!]

    4 Nicodemus saith unto Jesus, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    [This shows that Nicodemus had understood Jesus words as being ‘BORN AGAIN.”]

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    [Now all we have to do is to find out what Jesus meant by being born again of the water and of the spirit. Those that insist that Jesus’ reference to being ‘BORN OF WATER’ is of no greater significance than natural parturition need to explain why Jesus would use something over which no one has any control, plus the fact that all who hears Jesus have been so born. Why would Jesus use a natural process as a condition of salvation? It does not make sense, and if it doesn’t make sense, then it is disingenuous.

    [‘Except a man has been born of his mother he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven!” This kind of statement is so far from the syntax of Jesus that it is laughable. However, since what is at stake is correct insight into the processes through which a person can enter the kingdom of heaven, such a statement carries enormous, potentially disastrous consequences for all that view it as such. We must do much better than that.]

    [Every early Christian entered the Church of Jesus Christ through the waters of baptism, and regarded it as an essential ordinance. To see how baptism was viewed let us broaden out the scope of our inquiry to other parts of the Holy Bible where baptism is dealt with. However, before doing that I must share with you what Bishop Stephen Neill and Reverend Tom Wright have to say about modern Christianity’s view of early Christianity, for therein we shall see how many of the present difficulties of Modern Minimalists came into being.]

    [In their splendid and superbly researched book, ‘The Interpretation Of The New Testament,” (Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1964, reprinted 1989), we find:

    [“On the problem of ‘early Catholicism … it is not necessary to dwell

    very long. It seems to arise from a transposition of the problems of the

    Reformation period into the first century AD. To an extent which it is

    hard for the Christian of the English speaking world to realise, the mind

    of the continental Protestant has been fashioned by the running controversy

    with the Church of Rome which has gone on for more that four centuries. He

    has been taught at every point and in every respect to regard Catholicism as a

    deformation [apostasy] of the Gospel. If there is anything even in the New

    Testament that seems to lend support to the Catholic position, that must at once

    Be stigmatised as the beginning of the falling away of the Church from its true

    Nature, a falling that was almost complete by the second [Christian]

    century and from which it was delievered only through the new revelation [sic]

    given by God through Martin Luther in the 16th century …”

    [“But, through this anti-Catholic prejudice, a large group of continental [European]

    scholars have been led to produce a fancy picture of the early Church, which

    does not correspond to any known reality.” […]

    [“Equally, those early believers of a period ‘WHICH RECOGNISES NO

    CONDITION OTHER THAN THAT OF FAITH’ [EMPHASIS ADDED], and no means

    other than the Word, HAVE NO HISTORICAL EXISTENCE AN ALL.” [EMPHASIS ADDED]

    [“If there is ONE THING MORE CERTAIN THAN ANOTHER ABOUT THESE EARLY

    CHURCHES, IT IS THAT ADMISSION TO THEM WAS BY FAITH AND BAPTISM.”

    [THE NEW TESTAMENT KNOWS NOTHING OF MEMBERSHIP IN THE CHURCH

    BY FAITH ALONE, WITHOUT THE ACCOMPANYING ACT OF

    OBEDIENCE AND CONFESSION.” [EMPHASIS ADDED]

    [“The Epistle to the Romans was probably written in AD 56, that is less than

    thirty years after the death of Christ: Paul takes it for granted that all his readers

    will have been baptised, and that the extraordinarily high and realistic doctrine

    of baptism which he presents to them is not a strange new doctrine which he himself

    has thought up under the influence of some Hellenistic tradition or other.” ]

    [“WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE

    CHRISTIAN CHURCH, WHICH HAD GROWN OUT OF THE Jewish CHURCH,

    HAD ITS INSTITUTIONAL ELEMENT.” “WE MAY SAY, IF WE WISH, THAT

    BAPTISM WAS MERELY THE OUTWARD EXPRESSION OF A LIVING FAITH,

    AND THAT FAITH IS THE ALL-IMPORTANT THING. THIS IS TRUE, BUT

    IT DOES NOT ALTER THE FACT THAT, UNTIL FAITH HAD FOUND ITS

    EXPRESSION IN BAPTISM, THE BELIEVER WAS NOT A MEMBER OF

    THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY, THE BODY OF Christ.” [Emphasis added]

    [“NON-SACRAMENTAL Christianity, AS IS FOUND TODAY IN ALMOST ALL

    THE PROTESTANT CHURCHES OF THE CONTINENT OF EUROPE, IS AN

    INVENTION OF THE RATIONALISTIC NINETEENTH CENTURY; IT HAS

    LITTLE TO DO WITH THE CHRISTIANITY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT AND

    CANNOT BE MADE TO SQUARE WITH IT.” (Op Cit. pp. 200-202) Emphasis added]

    [There you have it from two Christian authorities with world wide reputations that Baptism was an essential Christian ordinance in the early Church of Jesus Christ. Most other proper Christians from the beginning up unto the present day make the same points that baptism was a necessary, essential, sacrament for Christians.

    That it is not so, is a modern minimalist heresy fostered by George Fox, the Baptist founder who felt it better to follow his uneasy feelings and abandon what the scriptures plainly say and relegate baptism by immersion for the remission of sins to a mere, non-essential, outward sign that believers were now free to neglect.]

    [If baptism was not essential, why did Jesus submit himself to be immersed by John the Baptiser in the Jordan, telling John, “Thus it becometh us [Jesus and everyone else] to fulfil all righteousness!”

    [If baptism was not essential, why did Jesus in the Great Commission tell the apostolate to baptise those that believed their message of his Messiahship? He that believeth AND IS BAPTISED SHALL BE SAVED! Those that believe not will not be baptised, and so it was unnecessary for him to mention it but said they would be condemned.

    Jesus said: “He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Mark 16:16

    [Do not focus on the unbeliever, but on the believer. – What did Jesus say?

    “He that believeth AND is baptised shall be saved!”

    [Jesus is unequivocal on his insistence that all should “fulfil all righteousness” by being to be saved, as in “He that believeth AND is baptised shall be saved.

    [Where is the escape route for those that throw Jesus’ commandment back into his face and telling him that he is wrong? These are they that say “His word has passed away. Jesus says, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away!” You can choose to follow the teachings of Jesus and the Bible or follow minimalists that depart from both Jesus and the Bible and go their own way, preaching another Gospel than that which Jesus taught.]

    What can we glean from Doctor Barnes' Notes on the Bible? The venerable doctor says:

    “He that believeth … ” – That is, he that believeth the gospel of Christ. "He who credits it to be true, and acts as if it were true." This is the whole of faith. Man is a sinner. He should act on the belief of this truth and repent.

    “There is a God. Man should believe it, and fear and love him, and seek his favour.

    “The Lord Jesus died to save him. To have faith in him is to believe that this is true, and to act accordingly; that is, to trust him, to rely on him, to love him, to feel that we have no merit, and to cast our all upon him.

    “There is a heaven and a hell. To believe this is to credit the account and act as if it were true – to seek the one and avoid the other. We are to die. To believe this is to act as if this were so; to be in readiness for it, and to expect it daily and hourly.

    “In one word, faith is feeling and acting as if there were a God, a Saviour, a heaven, a hell; as if we were sinners and must die; as if we deserved eternal death and were in danger of it; and, in view of all, casting our eternal interests on the mercy of God in Christ Jesus.

    “To do this is to be a Christian: not to do it is to be an infidel.

    “He that believeth — and is baptised!” That is, he that is initiated into the church by the application of water [baptism], as significant that he is a sinner, and needs the purifying influences of the Holy Spirit.

    It is worthy of remark that Jesus HAS MADE BAPTISM of so much importance. He did not say, indeed, that a man could not be saved without baptism, but he has strongly implied that where this is neglected "knowing it to be a command of the Saviour," IT ENDANGERS THE SALVATION OF THE SOUL.

    FAITH AND BAPTISM are the beginnings of a Christian life: the one the beginning of piety in the soul, the other of its manifestation before men or of a profession, of religion. Every man endangers his eternal interest by being ashamed of Christ before men. See Mark 8:38.”

    =======

    The Notes on The People's New Testament says”

    16:16 He that believeth. Believeth the gospel message; believes in Christ as his Savior.

    AND IS BAPTISED. These [FAITH AND BAPTISM] are the condition of pardon; faith in Christ and obedience to his command.

    If any one has not faith enough in Christ to obey him, he has not faith enough to be saved.

    ==========

    John Wesley noted

    16:16 And is baptised – In token [of his faith in Christ] thereof. EVERY ONE THAT BELIEVED WAS BAPTISED.

    ======

    [According to Martin Luther, Baptism by Immersion and the Lord’s Memorial Supper were both sacraments instituted in the New Testament. Even Luther did not believe that Sacraments were optional: he believed and taught that both were essential, as have all Christians since the time of Jesus. For Luther, these two essential observances were events in which three elements, act, word and participation, were involved. Those that deny one or both these sacrament stand outside the Christian fold.]

    [For both Luther and Calvin, baptism was essential the sacrament in which, through God’s promise and its acceptance in faith by the candidate, man dies to sin and is reborn in faith.]

    [Now we must find what Jesus meant, what those that came to Christ in those days understood by his saying, and how Christians of that time regarded his saying.]

    I love the way you try and speak to me authoritatively and tell me what I know of my own Lord and Savior, but you have absolutely no power or authority over me. I have been baptized, it is a part of following Jesus and showing publicly that I follow and obey my Savior. I have been born again of the Spirit which is the baptism Jesus said is required to see the kingdom of God. My faith has been put into action, I assure you.

    But for you to say that a person has to be baptized in order to live with God in heaven is unfounded. You have no biblical basis for that claim.

    Baptism of water does not save you, your belief (faith) does.

    Baptism was commanded to believers, but never does it say if you are not baptized you can’t live with God.

    In fact, the Mark verse you quoted: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned” clearly says he that doesn’t BELIEVE is damned! Not he that isn’t baptized. It says he that believes and is baptized will be saved, if you don’t BELIEVE you are damned. The baptism is not the requirement of salvation, it is an ACT of faith!

    I’d also like to point out it says DAMNED, not goes to a lower glory of heaven. Are you going to tell me that you think a believer who doesn’t get the chance to be baptized is DAMNED?

    That’s what it says Brian, not in telestial GLORY. Damned would never be used as a synonym for glory. So then you would have to tell the dying man “oops sorry, you weren’t baptized so your damned to hell.”

    Not much hope or good news in that.

    Also when Jesus said be born again, born of water and Spirit, he was speaking of being born the first time as babies to our mothers through “water” and being born AGAIN was by the Spirit. The baptism of the Spirit is the born again experience you need to see the Kingdom of God. You took the verse out of context, Jesus was clearly speaking to Nicodemus about our first birth as babies, which is why Nicodemus asks how he would get back into his mother’s womb to be born again! Read the whole chapter in its context.

    [This unbiblical wriggling away from the meaning of the word of Jesus is alarming. Jesus said ‘ye must be born again.

    [Jesus said ye must be born again of the water and of the spirit. ]

    [Jesus did not say ‘ye must be born of the water and then born again of the spirit. To suggest he could have meant that is to tamper with the scriptures and to take away from what Jesus actually said.]

    [What does the Bible say?]

    “Baptism, which is symbolised by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah” (1 Peter 3:21)

    [It also says that the direction Christ gave to his apostles was that they should BAPTISE ALL THAT BELIEVED! (SEE Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:16, &c).

    [When we look at Acts 2:38 we find Peter’s answer to the Jews that asked, “What shall we do?” He answered, “Repent, and be baptized EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

    The Jews had not been baptized; and a baptism now would be a profession of the religion of Christ, or a declaration made before the world that they embraced Jesus as their Messiah. It was equivalent to saying that they should publicly and professedly embrace Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

    The gospel requires such a profession of faith and a submission to baptism by immersion for the remission of sins of all that come to know Jesus as the Christ, the very Son of the Living God, and no one is at liberty to withhold it. A similar declaration is to be made to all who are inquiring the way to life. They are to exercise repentance; and then, without any unnecessary delay, to evince it by partaking of the ordinances of the gospel. If people are unwilling to profess religion, they have none. If they will not, in the proper way, show that they are truly attached to Christ, it is proof that they have no such attachment. Baptism is the application of water, as expressive of the need of purification, and as emblematic of the influences from God that can alone cleanse the soul. It is also a form of dedication to the service of God.

    In the name of Jesus Christ – Not εἰς eis, into, but ἐπί epi, upon. The usual form of baptism is into the name of the Father, etc. – εἰς eis. Here it does not mean to be baptized by the authority of Jesus Christ, but it means to be baptized for him and his service; to be consecrated in this way, and by this public profession, to him and to his cause. The expression is literally upon the name of Jesus Christ: that is, as the foundation of the baptism, or as that on which its propriety rested or was based. In other words, it is with an acknowledgment of him in that act as being what his name imports the Sinner's only Hope, his Redeemer, Lord, Justifier, King (Prof. Hackett, in loco). The name of Jesus Christ means the same as Jesus Christ himself. To be baptized to his name is to be devoted to him. The word "name" is often thus used. The profession which they were to make amounted to this: a confession of sins; a hearty purpose to turn from them; a reception of Jesus as the Messiah and as a Saviour; and a determination to become his followers and to be devoted to his service. Thus, 1 Corinthians 10:2, to be baptized unto Moses means to take him as a leader and guide. It does not follow that, in administering the ordinance of baptism, they used only the name of Jesus Christ. It is much more probable that they used the form prescribed by the Saviour himself Matthew 28:19; though, as the special mark of a Christian is that he receives and honors Jesus Christ, this name is used here as implying the whole. The same thing occurs in Acts 19:5.

    For the remission of sins – Not merely the sin of crucifying the Messiah, but of all sins. There is nothing in baptism itself that can wash away sin. That can be done only by the pardoning mercy of God through the atonement of Christ. But baptism is expressive of a willingness to be pardoned in that way, and is a solemn declaration of our conviction that there is no other way of remission. He who comes to be baptized, comes with a professed conviction that he is a sinner; that there is no other way of mercy but in the gospel, and with a professed willingness to comply with the terms of salvation, and to receive it as it is offered through Jesus Christ.

    And ye shall receive … – The gift of the Holy Spirit here does not mean his extraordinary gifts, or the power of working miracles, but it simply means, you shall partake of the influences of the Holy Spirit "as far as they may be adapted to your case" – as far as may be needful for your comfort, peace, and sanctification. There is no evidence that they were all endowed with the power of working miracles, nor does the connection of the passage require us thus to understand it. Nor does it mean that they had not been awakened "by his influences." All true conviction is from him, John 16:8-10. But it is also the office of the Spirit to comfort, to enlighten, to give peace, and thus to give evidence that the soul is born again. To this, probably, Peter refers; and this all who are born again and profess faith in Christ possess. There is peace, calmness, joy; there is evidence of piety, and that evidence is the product of the influences of the Spirit. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace," etc., Galatians 5:22, Galatians 5:24.

    [Professor John Eadie says that water baptism by immersion is an ordinance “that Christ made obligatory upon his disciples as a Christian ordinance.” He says, “Baptism is a solemn ordinance, exciting solemn reflections. Yet the ordinance has been sadly abused.” Doubtless, the greatest abuse inflicted on baptism is its designation by modern Minimalists as superfluous and denouncing it as a Romish frippery, and as spurious to the Christianisation and salvation of the faithful.]

    [Those that know the Holy Bible and that accept it a divinely inspired scripture do not take editorial scissors to it and leave its essentials on the editorial room floor. They search the scriptures, feasting on the words of Christ, they believe what Jesus says and are quick to obey him. They do not separate what Jesus had commanded into some that must be believed and some that must not be believed. Jesus cannot be so divided, and neither can his teachings. The true Christian will believe and be baptised, for that is what Jesus taught. Matt Slick argues that Jesus didn’t know what he was talking about and that people should follow Mrs Slick and not Jesus, because, according to Mr Slick, the Bible will lead people astray.]

    [In Matthew 28:18-20 Jesus commands all people, in becoming His disciples, to be taught His word and be baptised. Clearly baptism is important if Jesus commands us to be baptised, and, if he does command usm, then we should obey him. He, above all, knows what he is talking about.]

    [The commandment to be baptised is based on Jesus' own authority. He has commanded it. Anything He commands is important. Furthermore, it must be taught and practised as Jesus wants it to be. Men have no right to change what Jesus' has instituted. No, not even Matt Slick, Rick Ross, CARMS, or any other of the modern Minimalist heresies that are gone abroad into the world distorting the scriptures.]

    [Baptism by immersion in water at the hands of an authorised servant of Jesus Christ is a fundamental part of becoming a disciple, and it is certain that Jesus wants everyone in the world to be taught about it.]

    Matthew 28: 18 Then Jesus came to them and said,

    “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

    20a. and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

    [Jesus has not changed his mind since he said that.]

    [In conclusion, read what NON-LDS Christian James R Davis writes on baptism]:

    “To the modern world baptism has lost much of its significance and meaning. The vast majority of churches no longer require baptism as a prerequisite for church membership or participation in communion. Baptism has become merely an option, more a celebration of an individual's faith than of God's grace in joining that person to the body of Christ.

    Yet, in the N. T. every conversion culminated in the act of immersing men and women in water. One may legitimately ask, "Why was baptism practiced in the original church? What is the meaning of baptism?

    We could just say that Christ commanded it. That would suffice.

    Mark 16:15-16

    And he said unto them, Go ye into the entire world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Mt 28:18-20

    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    But I would like to say more. Baptism is not a meaningless ritual. I must not hesitate to say that baptism without Christ is nothing. Without Christ baptism would not be worth the effort of filling the baptistery.

    It seems good to me to help a person understand the why behind the command. We can't always understand the why, but it helps when we do. Whether we understand the why or not, we must still believe and obey.

    John 20:29

    Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.)

    It is equally true of all of God's promises and commands. It is great when we can understand the reasoning behind a command. But Jesus says that it is even greater for those who cannot see or understand, but they obey anyway.

    There has been a weakening on the teaching of baptism among churches. It might help us to come to grips with the importance of baptism if we could understand the purpose and meaning of baptism.

    Life has its reference points. The Great Winter Storm of 1993. Graduation Day. Wedding Day. Birthday. Death.

    Baptism is a reference point. Since the day many of you were baptized your life has been changed.

    Romans 6:1-4

    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Gal 3:26-27

    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    I. Decisive turning point in life.

    The importance of baptism is understood as one understands that it is a decisive turning point in life.

    A. Point where the past is healed.

    When you accept Christ sacrifice for your sins, baptism is the point where you find a healing for the past.

    Lk 4:18

    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, (KJV)

    Rev 22:2

    down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

    1. It is important for us to deal with our past — reconciling the past is a major accomplishment in life. We all have things in our past of which we are ashamed. It is important to deal with those things in a positive way.

    Ro 6:21

    What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!

    Remorse for past failures or sins deprives many Christians of the joy that should be theirs. A man in his middle years has withdrawn from the people in his church because he feels so bad about his past infidelity–a sin that broke up his home. An elderly woman needs counseling from time to time because she can't forget an affair in which she was involved more than 50 years ago. A young lady is under the care of a psychiatrist because she can't forgive herself for having had an abortion. Each of these people is now a Christian, but each is paralyzed at times by remorse over the past.

    There is only one problem about the past. You cannot change the past!

    If we were required to change our past in order to be saved — we would find ourselves in a hopeless situation.

    Yet God allows us to deal with the past with straightforwardness.

    Acts 2:37-38

    Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and is baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Isa 1:18

    Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    2. If you fail to bury the past it will come back to haunt you. Baptism allows us to bury our past in the blood of Christ.

    He 9:14

    How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    1 John 1:7

    But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    That is why Paul could forget the past.

    Phil 3:13-14

    Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

    B. Place where we find spiritual cleansing.

    1. David desired cleansing.

    Ps 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

    Psa 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

    Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

    A man for years had cheated himself out of the joy of forgiveness. He had felt guilty about the part he played in a college prank, which took the life of a classmate. Though he had confessed his wrong to God, he continued to be so torn up on the inside that he couldn't keep a job or maintain a good relationship with his wife. But one day the mother of the boy who had died stopped in to see him. She was astounded that he had been carrying this load of guilt. She assured him that she has forgiven him long ago and that none of her relatives held any ill feeling toward him. Furthermore, she reminded him that God had erased this unfortunate escapade from the record. Then she gently rebuked him, telling him it was wrong for him to be burdened with remorse. When he finally came to accept the pardon being extended to him, he felt a new sense of freedom, was reunited with his wife, and settled down in a good job.

    2. Baptism cleanses.

    Acts 22:16

    And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (KJV)

    1 Cor 6:9-11

    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    C. Spiritually and emotionally healed.

    Clear conscience.

    1 Pet 3:20-21

    Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    D. New life is found.

    Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    A small country church was having a "baptizing" in a river on a cold January day. A revival meeting had just concluded. The preacher asked one baptismal candidate, "Is the water cold?"

    "Naw!" he replied.

    One of the deacons shouted: "Dip him ag'in preacher, he's still lyin'!"

    E. Where Freedom is found.

    John 8:30-32

    As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    1. Freedom from sin.

    Romans 6:17-18

    But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

    2. Freedom from condemnation.

    Romans 8:1-2

    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    F. Point where we find wholeness.

    Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    Col 2:11-12

    In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    G. Point Justification is Realized.

    1. When one accepts Christ, baptism is the point where justification is found through Christ.

    Justification is when God accepts me just as if I had not sinned.

    Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    2. Many are confused about when they are justified before God.

    Gal 3:26-27

    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    Ro 4:11

    Abraham "received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

    Ro 4:22

    This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness."

    H. Point where we become members of Christ kingdom.

    Col 1:13-14

    I. Point where we die with Christ.

    Someone asked George Mueller the secret of his marvellous fruitfulness as a Christian. He replied, "There came a day when George Mueller died, utterly died! No longer did his own desire, preferences, and tastes come first. He knew that from then on Christ must be all in all!"

    Conclusion:

    Baptism is the point in your acceptance of Christ that you actually become a Christian as you are washed from your sins by the blood of Christ.”

    [AMEN!]

  185. Ronnie said, "Baptism is the point in your acceptance of Christ that you actually become a Christian as you are washed from your sins by the blood of Christ.”

    But even if your conclusion is true based on what you wrote, and I have no idea as I just don't have the time to analyze every line and cross reference that you wrote, a virtual novel again, to see if what you are saying is consistent, the blood of the Mormon Jesus doesn't save anyone as he doesn't exist as the true Jesus of the Bible was never a creation, the spirit child of God and the spirit brother of Satan and us as He is the creator of all things as everything that was made was made through Him. So the real Jesus, whose blood saves us, has always been God and He never wasn't God even when He walked this earth to be the perfect sacrifice to take away all of the sins of the world.

    Only God existed, and nothing or no one else, before the creation of Genesis, one God in three persons, The Father, The Son, and The Holy spirit, and there is no such thing as a pre existance hence there is no such thing as pre existant spirit children as the natural (the physical) came first and then the sprititual.

    In 1 Corinthians 15 it shows that the Natural came first and then the spiritual.

    1 Corinthians 15:46

    46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

    John 1 and Hebrews 1 show that everything, including the worlds (the Planets), included among the everything that was made was made through God the Son Jesus Christ, didn't exist until He made them. So there were no planets for God to have been a man on first before they were made.

    John 1:1-3

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

    Genesis 1 shows that the heavens did exist until God created them so there was no heaven for so called pre existant spirit children to exist in before God created heaven. Only God transcends time and space and is truly eternal from everlasting to everlasting in that He has always existed.

    Genesis 1:1

    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Yes, God knew He would create mankind but he hadn't done so until He created the first man out of the dust of the ground. So again, God is the eternal God who has always been God who was never a man first as man didn't exist until God created Him, among the all things were made through Him. Ronnie, you might not agree with this but, all things does mean all things.

    Genesis 2:7

    7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

  186. To any Mormons out there, hopefully Ronnie and Brian included, don't just take the brethern's word for it but test all things and hold fast to what is good using the Bible as your guide and, no, it isn't being contensious to do so as how could it be if the Bible says to do so?

    So questioning what you are being taught, going over it with a fine tooth comb, is not of the devil.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21

    21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

    In particular, study your own church history, as shown through your own church sources to see if it measures up.

    Some food for thought, a video by a Mormon about why people leave the Mormon Church. Note that he d0esn't want people to leave but for people to understand why some people do leave. I can't, for the life of me see, after investigating the things brought up in this video, a link to it is below, why people would want to stay though.

    "This video was made by a currently active and practicing Mormon and I believe it shows why our feelings can’t be trusted."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs

  187. .

    Kent:

    .

    You can not be serious! You write: " … if your conclusion is true based on what you wrote, and I have no idea as I just don’t have the time to analyze every line and cross reference that you wrote, a virtual novel again, to see if what you are saying is consistent … "

    Then you go on as if you had studied every line or what I write and found fault with something you have not read. That is simply intolerable.

    If you had had the courtesy, or even the curiosity, to read what I wrote you would have found that I used only the Holy Bible and comments made about the biblical Scriptures made by reputable NON-LDS Christian scholars and divines. That you refuse to read what they have to say is disastrous for your claim to be a follower of the Holy Bible.

    That you do not have the mental rigour to actually take time to read what your fellow [presumably] Christians have written that show them to be in agreement with what the Bible says and what Mormons actually believe suggests that you are not a serious Christian but at best a part-time semi-believer that is not prepared to give a ready answer when you raise objections and people take time and effort to make attempt to answer your questions.

    You leave us with no alternative that to define you as a simple minded Anti-Mormon whose only purpose here is to lay down one or two Scriptures that you apparently do not understand, but that you believe they somehow oppose Mormonism, which they do not.

    You may not intend to be insulting, but nevertheless you are when you suggest that Latter-day Saints believe only what the 'brethren' tell them to believe. That is an arrant nonsense.

    For my own part, I have been a student of the Holy Bible for more than sixty years. I am an academic Bible scholar, proficient in the biblical languages and have an earned degree from a British university's department of theology and religious studies. I read the Bible for myself and have continuously done so since 1950 when at the age of 15 I was converted by the Holy Spirit top the Church of Jesus Christ. I have taught Old and New Testaments in the Seminary programme, the Institute of Religion, and in The University of the Third Age. Your assumption is unfounded.

    You may disagree with me on certain understandings of the Holy Bible, but until you are prepared to roll up your sleeves, open your mind, open your Bible, and find out for yourself what the Bible actually says, in and of itself, and not what such as Walter Martin, Creflo Dollar, and Benny Hinn say about it instead of using your own mind and seeking understanding through the Holy Spirit, then you will never know what is actually IN the word of God, and what it REALLY SAYS, apart from what Matt Slick and jack Chick tell you to believe.

    I will give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest that you do not mean to be insulting and belittling, but you certainly come across that way. Perhaps you would do everyone the favour of thinking before you rush into print?

    If you do not wish to be thought contentious,. then do not be contentious merely for the sake of insisting that you are right and everyone else wrong. Unless you are prepared to stand up like a man and discuss the Bible passages I have quoted together with the commentaries provided by Non-Mormon Bible Scholars and theologians, then you have no right to stand there shaking your fist and denouncing me for what I believe. Take each point as I laid it before you and show me where I am wrong in my understanding of the sacred word. Stope being lazy and begin to tackle it point by point. I am not in any hurry.

    Remember, Kent, this isn't about you and it isn't about me, but it IS about what the Bible says and what Christians have long held what it says to mean. If you don't know what Christians hold the Bible to mean on the points I have set forth for you, then you cannot with any degree of honesty malign me for believing the Bible as I do.

    You cannot tell me that I don't believe the Bible to be translated correctly unless you can show me verse by verse which ones they are that I claim to be incorrectly translated. If you are going to be any good as an Anti-Mormon then you ought top know your subject much better than you do.

    Please do NOT change the subject. Keep on the point and let us see if we can get anywhere else but list.

    Perhaps you will cease from belittling the Holy Bible by calling references to it 'a virtual novel,' because novels are fiction [unless it is an historical novel] and the Bible is not a novel, virtual or otherwise, and no True Christian will claim it to be so.

    The truth is that only atheists and wobbly agnostics take the Bible to be a fairy story. Are you one of them? I didn't think you were, but claiming the Bible passages and Christian comment on them 'a virtual novel' does raise a red flag. If you don't believe the Bible is true, then what do you think it is?

    Members of The Church Of JESUS CHRIST Of Latter-day Saints believe that it is the word of God.

    What do YOU believe it is other than a novel?

  188. Ronnie, I wasn't belittling the Holy Bible as I wasn't talking about the Bible. I was referring to your post as a virtual novel, in length, that I don't have time to go through and check all your claims and cross references to see if they add up.

    But even if your conclusion is correct that we can't become a Christian until we are baptized, which I don't believe is the case as the thief who was crucified on the cross with Jesus became a Christian at the end of his life and he wasn't baptized, the blood of the Mormon Jesus saves no one as he doesn't exist.

    The Jesus of the Bible has always been God, He was never a spirit child who is the brother of us and of Satan whose salvation plan was accepted over his brother Satan's plan as Satan never had a salvation plan as he is the father of all lies.

    The Jesus of the Bible is God the Son, the second person of the trinity, and, as I pointed all things were created through Him, including the worlds, and there was nothing that was made that was made.

    So there was no heaven for spirit children to exist in, even if they did exist, as heaven didn't exist until He created heaven and, also as I pointed out, there were no planets (worlds) for God to have been a man on first before He created them.

    I am not changing the subject as who Jesus is and what He did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day is everything and only the blood of the true Jesus of the Bible saves us.

    John 1:1-3

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

    Genesis 1:1

    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Leah and Jake, another thing I find curious about some Mormons is that they get upset when we don't accept them as the teachers they consider themselves and recognize that, to them anyway, that they are more spiritually advanced than we are.

    The reason I say this is because another response I get, besides that some of them thinking I am attacking them personally, is that Mormons will say that while they acknowledge that I mean well, they say I am on a milk diet spiritually, just a babe in Christ, who needs the knowledge they think I need, namely, what is taught by the Mormon Church.

    Sidenote: Jehovahs Witnesses also consider themselves teachers of everyone else and they are put off when we don't see them as such. Any coincidence there?

  189. Ronnie said, "You cannot tell me that I don’t believe the Bible to be translated correctly unless you can show me verse by verse which ones they are that I claim to be incorrectly translated. If you are going to be any good as an Anti-Mormon then you ought top know your subject much better than you do."

    First of all I am not an Anti-Mormon, I am anti-Mormonism so I am not against any person just the teachings of the Mormon Church. I am for the people and that is why I come here to write what I write.

    Secondly, I have pointed out that while the Mormon Church in practice uses the Bible as being the word of God but incomplete with addtional words of God needed to show the whole picture, officially the Mormon Church itself brings into question the validity of the Bible by saying, "the Bible is the word of God as far as it has been translated correctly." There is a clear contradiction between how you and other Mormons use the Bible and the offiicial position of your church on the Bible.

    Because if it is the word of God but it is incomplete, then why doesn't your church say this, again, why even bring up that the Bible hasn't been translated correctly?

  190. I said, "Secondly, I have pointed out that while the Mormon Church in practice uses the Bible as being the word of God but incomplete with addtional words of God needed to show the whole picture." This should read, "Mormons in practice use the Bible as being the word of God but incomplete."

  191. Kent: That's exactly what they think, that they are "spiritually advanced." It's because they are told they are the only people on earth who have all of God's truth. They think that Christians and even some other religions (like Islam) have parts of the truth, but it's been corrupted and they have strayed from the truth. Only the LDS have been given ALL of the true restored gospel from God. So you Kent, are beneath them and your knowledge pales in comparison to what they have. You have no authority to speak on godly matters in their eyes. Most of the old stalwarts will not even listen to anything you have to say, because you don't have the ability to know what the truth is because you aren't Mormon. Add to it that they think they are the only ones who hold God's priesthood and authority, and you get very prideful, arrogant men who think you have no clue what you are talking about. Only people in God's "one true church" have the Holy Ghost according to them! I remember the elitist attitude well and see it displayed here plenty. It's so different inside the LDS culture Kent, we are taught all the above from birth! We are walked up in sacrament meeting as soon as we can talk and told to say "I know this church is true and that Joseph Smith is a true prophet." I remember believing all that and thinking it too, it completely screws up your head where you don't even know WHY you believe it but its ingrained in you. It really takes an act of God to open hearts and minds to His real truth after all that…

  192. So Leah, in effect Mormons are using a logical fallacy known as ad honinem (sp), 'to the man', so they are discrediting what I am saying because it is me saying it, but they are not considering the argument that is being presented on its merits.

    It, by the way, is not me saying, that "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made" and "through whom also He made the worlds." Of course, the Him referenced here is Jesus Christ, it is the Bible saying it and it shows that planets didn't exist before He made them so there were no planets yet, before He made them, for God to have been a man on first.,

    It is also not me saying, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" so, again, it is the Bible saying that the heavens were not created before God made them and it follows that there were no heavens for spirit children, even if they did exist, to be in before God created the heavens.

    So if any Mormons believe that there were heavens for spirit children to exist in and that there were planets for God to have been a man on first before He became God their problem is that they don't believe what the Bible clearly says about it not with me pointing out what the Bible says.

    John 1:1-3

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

    I will give Ronnie and Brian credit as at least they don't try to claim, like some other Mormons at another site do, that every part of Mormon doctrine can be proven using the Bible alone. So they are consistent that they believe additional writings are needed such as the BOM, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, etc.

    As absurd as it seems, another Mormon says the Bible alone shows that God was a man first before He became God. Where he got this, I still don't know.

  193. I would like to invite Jake, Leah, and any of the Mormons who want to participate, as the more they hear the truth, the more likely the Holy Spirit will reach into their hearts and, boom, the light goes on and they suddenly see.

    Anyway, it is another blog, it is run by a Christian pastor who witnesses to Mormons. It is called Mark Cares Web Blog at http://markcares.wordpress.com/

    Leah, it is over there where a Mormon refuses to respond to my comments, most of the time anyway as he can't resist to respond at times, because to him I am not there to learn from him and the other Mormons as, like I said, he considers himself above me, I guess my teacher so to speak, and he doesn't like it that I don't accept his teachings.

    Ironic though that it is not a Mormon Blog at all, he is a guest there, and he still thinks we are there to learn from him?

  194. I'm not surprised at all Kent! It's the attitude that is prevalent with the stalwarts. They mock Christians too…they scoff at the silly Christians who only have "parts" of the truth and look down their noses at those who will not listen, and call YOU prideful for not hearing them! It would be comical if their souls were not at stake…I will check out the site, thanks!

  195. "the more they hear the truth, the more likely the Holy Spirit will reach into their hearts and, boom, the light goes on and they suddenly see."

    You're right Kent, we can only plant seeds because it is God who does the opening of the eyes. And you never know when a heart has been prepared by Him to receive the truth and the time is right so we must be willing to share the true gospel! I said before that at first when I accepted Jesus I was a little upset that some of my Christian friends had not shared the gospel with me before…but God knows when the time is right and I probably wouldn't have listened any earlier because of where I was in my life. But today could be the day that someone else is ready and the Holy Spirit takes over! I thank God for people like you Kent who love Mormons enough to share truth with them in a patient, loving manner.

  196. Kent: to add to your verses, Jesus also said when speaking to the Pharisees “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world." (John 8:23) Now why would Jesus say that if we all came from heaven above? Also in John 3:31 reiterating the point John says of Jesus "The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all." Jesus is the only one who came from heaven, not us. We were formed out of the dust of the ground (earthly) and God breathed life into us. The teaching of a preexistence with spirit children contradicts the teachings of the Bible.

  197. One more thing about how some Mormons react with anger towards me and they say I am was attacking them personally by being critical of the Mormon Church when in fact I have never say anything personal about them ever, it shows that we really can't rely on our feelings for the truth as relying on our feelings can put us in danger of the judgement. Because when people are angry with someone for questioning the teachings of the Mormon Church they are being angry without a cause, especially towards me, as there is no malice in my heart towards them.

    Jesus said in Matthew 5:22, "whosoever is angry with his: brother without a cause shall be in danger of the: judgment."

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  198. Contrast the Mormon way to eternal life, which starts at the temple but you still are not there and you can never have eternal life unless you first enter the temple, perform all its rituals and obey all of the laws and ordinances but you still don’t know that you have eternal life.

    While with the blood of Jesus we can enter the Holiest place and we have eternal life by the blood of Jesus. So the contrast is between what we do (the Mormon way) and what Jesus did to save us and give us eternal life by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day. Jesus is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE!

    “TO ENTER THE TEMPLE YOU MUST BE A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH WHO KEEPS BAPTISMAL AND OTHER COVENANTS.

    You need to attend church.

    You need to have a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

    You need to have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer.

    You need to have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel (Christs original message and authority).

    You need to believe and support the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who has the authority (given to him by God) to be God’s representative to the world. You need to support the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators. You need to sustain the other authorities the Church as well.

    You need to live a chaste life.

    You need to treat your family right and support them.

    YOU NEED TO SUPPORT THE CHURCH AND ITS TEACHINGS.

    YOU NEED TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

    You have to be honest in your dealings with your fellowmen.

    YOU NEED TO PAY A FULL TITHE.

    YOU CAN’T DRINK ALCOHOL, USE TOBACCO, OR ABUSE DRUGS”

    OR

    Hebrews 10:19

    19 THEREFORE, BRETHREN, HAVING BOLDNESS TO ENTER THE HOLIEST BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS

    John 3:36

    36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    11

    Jun

    12

    The True Gospel

    By markcares21 Comments

    Categories: George Albert Smith, grace and worthiness

    Tags: church of jesus christ of latter day saints, George Albert Smith, gospel, grace, LDS, Mormonism, Mormons, witnessing to Mormons

    Chapter 12 of the Teachings of George Albert Smith is the first of three chapters encouraging LDS members in their missionary activities. As is stated, this chapter “focuses on the reasons we share the gospel”.

    Although these words are not directly used in this chapter, the reason for sharing the gospel is the belief that the LDS Church is the only true church. For example, Jose L. Alonso, one of its General Authority, stated at last October’s General Conference, “I bear witness that President Thomas S. Monson is Their prophet and that this is the only true Church upon the face of the earth.” Chapter 12 reflects that by saying that the only persons who possess divine authority are in the LDS Church.

    The other reason why Mormonism teaches it is important to do mission work is because it feels it is the only one that has the true gospel. For example, President Smith states, in reference to pastors: “These good men, not understanding the gospel and the necessity for the ordinances of the same, confine their teachings very largely to moral lessons and to reading the psalms to their congregations. Isolated passages of scripture are chosen as texts for addresses on virtue, honesty, etc., all of which are helpful and uplifting, but few sermons are preached explaining the requirements made of every soul before we can enter the kingdom of heaven. It is this information of which the world is most in need. Few ministers have a message for their congregations that inspires in them the belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ and the necessity of partaking of the ordinances of the gospel prescribed by him.” I find it interesting that he sees most sermons largely as moral lessons and not as pointing to the wonderful things Jesus has done for us.

    But what is most important to see is how Mormons define gospel differently than the Bible does. The gospel, according to the Bible, is simply the good news that Jesus, as our substitute, lived a perfect life for us, died a sacrificial death for us, and solely on the basis of that, God sees us as worthy and perfect in his sight. But when the LDS Church talks about the fulness of the Gospel it means much more. “In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom.” (True to the Faith, p. 76) As that quote shows, included in the LDS gospel are many things that humans are to do. That is emphasized in chapter 12 of the Teachings of George Albert Smith when he states: “My understanding is that the most important mission that I have in this life is: first, to keep the commandments of God, as they have been taught to me; and next, to teach them to my Father’s children who do not understand them.” Note how when he talks about his most important mission he mentions nothing about teaching what Jesus did for him.

    Sometimes Mormons wonder why Christians react so adversely to the teachings of Mormonism. This is one example. What Mormonism calls the fulness of the gospel I see as a terrible corruption and complete destruction of the true gospel. The true gospel is from first to last about what Jesus has done for us. Any mention of what I have to do in order to be accepted by God is not gospel, good news. Instead of relieving me, such things burden me. Instead of inspiring confidence, they introduce doubt as I wonder if I have done everything I need to do to be worthy. But most importantly of all, they rob Jesus of the glory of doing everything for me. “To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.” (Ephesians 1:6) Being accepted by God through grace – that is the true gospel. And praising God for it is the most important mission of all!

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    1Kent

    June 11, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    Mark has hit the nail on the head, the focus is either on everything we do as past Mormon leader Spencer Kimball said the gospel is a set of laws and ordinances, the Mormon gospel, or it is all about what Jesus did to save us, sinners who can never save themselves, the true gospel of the Bible.

    Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.”

    Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6

    OR

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    I know the Mormons who post here have said that 1 Corinthians 15 shows that Paul was only teaching the first principles of the gospel here but that is a stretch as Paul did not say there is more to the gospel only that it is what he first taught because Paul did, in his missions, teach other things besides the gospel.

    2JBR

    June 11, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    Yes… What Mormonism calls the fulness of the gospel is a terrible corruption and complete destruction of the true gospel.

    There is no greater abomination (spiritually speaking) when the word “gospel” is attatched to obedience to the law.

    We pray that those Mormons who realize the falsehood of this “gospel” and are looking for the truth find the message that is revealed in the Bible which can free them of the slavery that Mormonism puts them under.

    We also pray that may come to hear this as the goal to reach a million Mormons continue and hear the sweet message of what Jesus revealed in the Bible so as some might turn and be saved.

    3joshtried

    June 12, 2012 at 5:56 am

    Lets play spin that religion:

    Lutheran’s: Dont worry about life in the slightest. Every decision in your life that should mean something is really pointless. Sure, you get to choose what you are going to eat today, and maybe choose your tie, but you dont get to choose anything meaningful in your life. Heck, you shouldnt have even chose a wife/husband. But thats okay… Well, it is okay if your one of the lucky ones that God plucks out of everything that is truly unworthy. But hey, if your unlucky, dont worry about it. Its all part of God’s plan, thanks for making me feel better about myself.

    Mormon’s: Jesus having a plan for you in this life is crazy. Giving meaning to anything in this life is crazy. Marriage should mean nothing, and you guys are crazy and giving it eternal principles. You want to have Christ as a friend? well, good luck there. God only chooses people that decide to reject your “religion.” Thinking that God would actually talk to people today, the audacity!! If he was going to talk to anyone, it would certainly be me. I mean come on… I’m not a Mormon! I win times like a thousand. You guys are so rigid. You demand certain things be met before you get baptized. Shoot, even the people performing a baptism. Dont you guys know that anyone can do that? I mean really.. Faking people out with your “holy” lifestyles and “wholesome” family engagements. Who in the world would ever say that stuff was necessary? Certainly not Jesus. Believing you should actually try and follow what God said. You guys are stupid. Dont you know God was making fun of you? Surely you know that you cant be perfect in this life. I know I cant.

    4shematwater

    June 12, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    Josh

    I love it. Says everything you perfectly.

    5JBR

    June 13, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Josh,

    Is remarks like that happens when you desperatly try to justify how Mormons define gospel differently than the Bible does? I have re-read it many times and still come away with how disjointed it was vs the OP.

    Maybe you aught to listen to your wife and stop coming to this blog for awhile at least.

    ——————-

    Shem responds, …..”I love it. Says everything you perfectly.”

    If you’re going to remark on someone’s (Josh in this instance) perfect reply, it would help if you started with yourself……. “Says everything you perfectly” —- but coming from you I understand that you enjoy the notion that God has a moving target of perfection that is totally subjective upon each individual and so it carries over.

    But hey … you did all you could do.

    I guess we should be like God and be happy with that and wait for somebody else to do the rest.

    6shematwater

    June 13, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    JBR

    I think we should try to understand things better, which you seem to refuse to do, as evidenced by your continual lack of understand, and refusal to accept correction.

    Again you give a false understanding of our doctrine, and no matter what we say you will never admit that it is false.

    I notice that you find the need to latch unto typing errors rather than anything with any real substance to make your arguments. The personal attacks seem to be very common with you.

    As to definitions, the Bible does not hold to the difinition given by Mark, unless you approach the Bible by saying, “This is the definition, so let us find it.”

    Now, if you want to take things literally, the word Gospel means good news. As such it was originally used in the bible in reference to the sacrifice of Christ, the good news of his redeeming power. However, as all news has its details, the term soon came to encompass all things that are related to this one event, or that come out of it. This is why Paul states that the atonement was the first thing he taught, but does not say it was the only thing he taught (which would have been an outright lie anyway).

    So, by the understanding of the LDS and the support of the Bible, the Gospel is the atoning sacrifice of Christ and all things that were made possible by that sacrifice. To us this includes repentence, obedience, and all the ordinances that are required for salvation. To you it includes nothing beyond that sacrifice.

    As to Josh’s comment, he hit it right on the head as to your attitude in regards to yourselves and us. You may not like it, and I thought it a little out of character for him, but that is exactly how you act.

    7JBR

    June 13, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    Shem,

    I know that your only way to avoid the falsehood of Mormonism when it’s being applied to it’s practical conclusion (in such a way that doesn’t allow for rabbit hole besides the point ya da ya da…) is to cry personal attacks. For the novice or timid that attempts to converse with Mormons such as yourself, such a ploy could work.

    Mark is indeed correct for there is no good news in a gospel definition like what you described ” repentence, obedience, and all the ordinances that are required for salvation”

    Why we don’t listen … very simply:

    “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” Ephesians 5:11 KJV

    or

    ” Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” NIV

    .. I suppose exposing the fruitless deeds of darkness one would cry personal attacks.

    8shematwater

    June 13, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    JBR

    I point out your tactic of personal attacks to let people know what caliber of person is attempting to lead them to Christ. It has nothing to do with my ability to reason and discuss.

    You said “If you’re going to remark on someone’s (Josh in this instance) perfect reply, it would help if you started with yourself……. “Says everything you perfectly”

    This is a personal attack made against a typing error, a thing of insignificance. You felt it necessary to make a comment not on what I said, but on the mistake I made in typing it out. That is a personal attack, and an attempt to discredit me based on a small error.

    I don’t have to avoid any falseness, as the LDS has more truth then you could possibly comprehend. When being applied to its practical conclusion it is the most glorious conception of God and man that could have been devised, and is the only one that I have ever seen that does not contradict itself.

    The problem is that you don’t have any clue as to what is really taught, but prefer your twisted version, which is false and thus will always fail; much like your own religion.

    Honestly, it is you people who avoid the issue, especially when we are told that logic simply just doesn’t apply, so any logical discussion will be ignored. There is more evasion and double talk coming from you than there ever is coming from us.

    As to the Gospel, I find nothing good about what you claim the gospel to be. There is nothing good in not having free will. There is nothing good in not being part of your own salvation.

    There is peace in knowing that what you do matters. There is joy in knowing that Christ is always there to help you do what is needed. There is great news is knowing that through him all things are possible, even the living of a righteous life to qualify for salvation. There is no better news than to know that I have a choice, that God cares about me enough to show me what the right choice is, but still gives me the freedom choose on my own.

    That is the biggest difference that I have seen. We actually believe that we matter as individuals.

    9JBR

    June 13, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    Still haven’t caught on Shem ….. your typo is an earthly example of what happens to those who attempt Mormonism’s gospel plan (” repentence, obedience, and all the ordinances that are required for salvation”) according to what God revealed:

    James 2:10

    For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all

    Galatians 2:16

    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    I am showed how you’re discrediting yourself based on a small error…. God revealed how you’re discrediting yourself following Mormonism’s gospel plan in a big way.

    10JBR

    June 13, 2012 at 7:45 pm

    should say:

    I am showing how you’re discrediting yourself based on a small error…. God revealed how you’re discrediting yourself following Mormonism’s gospel plan in a big way.

    11Kent

    June 14, 2012 at 2:56 am

    Yes, you can choose to reject the true gospel of the Bible in favor of a set of laws and ordinances.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    OR

    Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.”

    Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6

    And you can choose to reject the true grace of Jesus Christ by trying to make it after all we can do instead of being a free gift that He gave to us that we can do nothing to earn. Our works count for nothing as it is only Jesus’ work on the cross and His rising again on the third day that saves us.

    2 Nephi 2:23

    23 For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can do.

    OR

    Ephesians 2:8-9

    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    12Kent

    June 14, 2012 at 3:10 am

    I know the Mormon regulars who post here will likely say that what Spencer W Kimball said is not their doctrine but if that is the case, then why did he say that the gospel of Jesus Christ is a set of laws and ordinances?

    Yes, it seems there is some lip service to Jesus Christ sacrifice on the cross but the focus is clear that it is about what men do and not about what Jesus Christ did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day.

    13shematwater

    June 14, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    JBR

    Are you serious? Really? A typing error proves that what we teach is false? How arrogant can you get?

    Isaiah 29: 20-21

    “For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: THAT MAKE A MAN AN OFFENDER FOR A WORD, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.”

    It is actually kind of funny. You can’t argue against anything I say so you have to claim that how I say it proves me wrong.

    14JBR

    June 14, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Shem,

    Actually your reply shows how little you take God seriously.

    You’re actually are the arrogant in view of God demand of “be perfect even as I am”

    Yes shem …. Mormonism’s plan makes you guilty of every command. James 2:10

    And unless you repent and come to the gospel plan as revealed in the Bible, you will be shown as a liar by God for not taking him seriously. 1 John 5:10

    15JBR

    June 14, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Should read:

    You’re actually the arrogant in view of God’s demand of “be ye therefore perfect even as I am perfect”

    16Echo

    June 15, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Mark said: “Instead of inspiring confidence, they introduce doubt as I wonder if I have done everything I need to do to be worthy”

    I am so thankful that our confidence doesn’t rest on our attempts to make ourselves worthy. Our confidence rests in knowing that God loves the unworthy. He’s an amazing God. A God that I truly desire to obey because of the confidence he has given me.

    17joshtried

    June 15, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    “Instead of inspiring confidence, they introduce doubt as I wonder if I have done everything I need to do to be worthy”

    Everybody feels this way at some point. And then we study scripture. If that still “makes you wonder” then perhaps you should re-evaluate your personal dealings with God. I no longer have any “wonder” about what i need to do. I havent had any for a very long time. There are many LDS that will give you this same response (though most will likely word it differently). There are many Christians that wonder if they are truly saved. There are atheists and satanists, and Jedis, all wondering the same thing (yes, jedi is an officially recognized religion in the US). Wonder does not mean false. How many astronomers wondered whether the earth revolved around the sun?

    18Kent

    June 15, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    John 3:36

    36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    It doesn’t say anything about having to be a member of the Mormon Church abut having to be worthy by paying tithes to the Mormon Church, about not having a cup of coffee, about not having a glass of wine, etc, and it doesn’t say anything about having to peform a bunch of rituals and follow a bunch of laws and ordinances to have eternal life. It says, again, WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE! I going to add this to the end of my posts from now on.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    19Kent

    June 15, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    Shem said, “That is the biggest difference that I have seen. We actually believe that we matter as individuals.”

    We also believe that we matter as individuals and what we do is important in fact Jesus Christ believes we matter as individuals as He died for each and every one of of us and it is His blood that was shed and His rising again on the third day, and nothing else, that gives us eternal life.

    But we also believe that anything we do has nothing to do wit our salvation, that grace doesn’t come after all we can do but it is a free gift that was given freely by our savior Jesus Christ.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    20choosethechrist

    June 15, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    Bottom line: Any Mormon who is not living 100% free from sin (and that includes the sin in your heart, not just the outward sin you have committed) is in BIG trouble because your “Jesus” can not save you until you are living 100% “right”. That is NOT good news and that is NOT the true gospel. The true gospel is good news: you are forgiven, perfect, holy, and righteous ONLY after you have put your faith in Christ alone for the forgiveness of your sins because it is ONLY through the shed blood of Christ on the cross that makes you worthy enough to enter the presence of a holy God. PERIOD!

    21Kent

    June 17, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Contrast the Mormon way to eternal life, which starts at the temple but you still are not there and you can never have eternal life unless you first enter the temple, perform all its rituals and obey all of the laws and ordinances but you still don’t know that you have eternal life.

    While with the blood of Jesus we can enter the Holiest place and we have eternal life by the blood of Jesus. So the contrast is between what we do (the Mormon way) and what Jesus did to save us and give us eternal life by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day. Jesus is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE!

    “TO ENTER THE TEMPLE YOU MUST BE A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH WHO KEEPS BAPTISMAL AND OTHER COVENANTS.

    You need to attend church.

    You need to have a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

    You need to have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer.

    You need to have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel (Christs original message and authority).

    You need to believe and support the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who has the authority (given to him by God) to be God’s representative to the world. You need to support the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators. You need to sustain the other authorities the Church as well.

    You need to live a chaste life.

    You need to treat your family right and support them.

    YOU NEED TO SUPPORT THE CHURCH AND ITS TEACHINGS.

    YOU NEED TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

    You have to be honest in your dealings with your fellowmen.

    YOU NEED TO PAY A FULL TITHE.

    YOU CAN’T DRINK ALCOHOL, USE TOBACCO, OR ABUSE DRUGS”

    OR

    Hebrews 10:19

    19 THEREFORE, BRETHREN, HAVING BOLDNESS TO ENTER THE HOLIEST BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS

    John 3:36

    36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

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    The True Gospel

    By markcares21 Comments

    Categories: George Albert Smith, grace and worthiness

    Tags: church of jesus christ of latter day saints, George Albert Smith, gospel, grace, LDS, Mormonism, Mormons, witnessing to Mormons

    Chapter 12 of the Teachings of George Albert Smith is the first of three chapters encouraging LDS members in their missionary activities. As is stated, this chapter “focuses on the reasons we share the gospel”.

    Although these words are not directly used in this chapter, the reason for sharing the gospel is the belief that the LDS Church is the only true church. For example, Jose L. Alonso, one of its General Authority, stated at last October’s General Conference, “I bear witness that President Thomas S. Monson is Their prophet and that this is the only true Church upon the face of the earth.” Chapter 12 reflects that by saying that the only persons who possess divine authority are in the LDS Church.

    The other reason why Mormonism teaches it is important to do mission work is because it feels it is the only one that has the true gospel. For example, President Smith states, in reference to pastors: “These good men, not understanding the gospel and the necessity for the ordinances of the same, confine their teachings very largely to moral lessons and to reading the psalms to their congregations. Isolated passages of scripture are chosen as texts for addresses on virtue, honesty, etc., all of which are helpful and uplifting, but few sermons are preached explaining the requirements made of every soul before we can enter the kingdom of heaven. It is this information of which the world is most in need. Few ministers have a message for their congregations that inspires in them the belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ and the necessity of partaking of the ordinances of the gospel prescribed by him.” I find it interesting that he sees most sermons largely as moral lessons and not as pointing to the wonderful things Jesus has done for us.

    But what is most important to see is how Mormons define gospel differently than the Bible does. The gospel, according to the Bible, is simply the good news that Jesus, as our substitute, lived a perfect life for us, died a sacrificial death for us, and solely on the basis of that, God sees us as worthy and perfect in his sight. But when the LDS Church talks about the fulness of the Gospel it means much more. “In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom.” (True to the Faith, p. 76) As that quote shows, included in the LDS gospel are many things that humans are to do. That is emphasized in chapter 12 of the Teachings of George Albert Smith when he states: “My understanding is that the most important mission that I have in this life is: first, to keep the commandments of God, as they have been taught to me; and next, to teach them to my Father’s children who do not understand them.” Note how when he talks about his most important mission he mentions nothing about teaching what Jesus did for him.

    Sometimes Mormons wonder why Christians react so adversely to the teachings of Mormonism. This is one example. What Mormonism calls the fulness of the gospel I see as a terrible corruption and complete destruction of the true gospel. The true gospel is from first to last about what Jesus has done for us. Any mention of what I have to do in order to be accepted by God is not gospel, good news. Instead of relieving me, such things burden me. Instead of inspiring confidence, they introduce doubt as I wonder if I have done everything I need to do to be worthy. But most importantly of all, they rob Jesus of the glory of doing everything for me. “To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.” (Ephesians 1:6) Being accepted by God through grace – that is the true gospel. And praising God for it is the most important mission of all!

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    1Kent

    June 11, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    Mark has hit the nail on the head, the focus is either on everything we do as past Mormon leader Spencer Kimball said the gospel is a set of laws and ordinances, the Mormon gospel, or it is all about what Jesus did to save us, sinners who can never save themselves, the true gospel of the Bible.

    Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.”

    Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6

    OR

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    I know the Mormons who post here have said that 1 Corinthians 15 shows that Paul was only teaching the first principles of the gospel here but that is a stretch as Paul did not say there is more to the gospel only that it is what he first taught because Paul did, in his missions, teach other things besides the gospel.

    2JBR

    June 11, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    Yes… What Mormonism calls the fulness of the gospel is a terrible corruption and complete destruction of the true gospel.

    There is no greater abomination (spiritually speaking) when the word “gospel” is attatched to obedience to the law.

    We pray that those Mormons who realize the falsehood of this “gospel” and are looking for the truth find the message that is revealed in the Bible which can free them of the slavery that Mormonism puts them under.

    We also pray that may come to hear this as the goal to reach a million Mormons continue and hear the sweet message of what Jesus revealed in the Bible so as some might turn and be saved.

    3joshtried

    June 12, 2012 at 5:56 am

    Lets play spin that religion:

    Lutheran’s: Dont worry about life in the slightest. Every decision in your life that should mean something is really pointless. Sure, you get to choose what you are going to eat today, and maybe choose your tie, but you dont get to choose anything meaningful in your life. Heck, you shouldnt have even chose a wife/husband. But thats okay… Well, it is okay if your one of the lucky ones that God plucks out of everything that is truly unworthy. But hey, if your unlucky, dont worry about it. Its all part of God’s plan, thanks for making me feel better about myself.

    Mormon’s: Jesus having a plan for you in this life is crazy. Giving meaning to anything in this life is crazy. Marriage should mean nothing, and you guys are crazy and giving it eternal principles. You want to have Christ as a friend? well, good luck there. God only chooses people that decide to reject your “religion.” Thinking that God would actually talk to people today, the audacity!! If he was going to talk to anyone, it would certainly be me. I mean come on… I’m not a Mormon! I win times like a thousand. You guys are so rigid. You demand certain things be met before you get baptized. Shoot, even the people performing a baptism. Dont you guys know that anyone can do that? I mean really.. Faking people out with your “holy” lifestyles and “wholesome” family engagements. Who in the world would ever say that stuff was necessary? Certainly not Jesus. Believing you should actually try and follow what God said. You guys are stupid. Dont you know God was making fun of you? Surely you know that you cant be perfect in this life. I know I cant.

    4shematwater

    June 12, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    Josh

    I love it. Says everything you perfectly.

    5JBR

    June 13, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Josh,

    Is remarks like that happens when you desperatly try to justify how Mormons define gospel differently than the Bible does? I have re-read it many times and still come away with how disjointed it was vs the OP.

    Maybe you aught to listen to your wife and stop coming to this blog for awhile at least.

    ——————-

    Shem responds, …..”I love it. Says everything you perfectly.”

    If you’re going to remark on someone’s (Josh in this instance) perfect reply, it would help if you started with yourself……. “Says everything you perfectly” —- but coming from you I understand that you enjoy the notion that God has a moving target of perfection that is totally subjective upon each individual and so it carries over.

    But hey … you did all you could do.

    I guess we should be like God and be happy with that and wait for somebody else to do the rest.

    6shematwater

    June 13, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    JBR

    I think we should try to understand things better, which you seem to refuse to do, as evidenced by your continual lack of understand, and refusal to accept correction.

    Again you give a false understanding of our doctrine, and no matter what we say you will never admit that it is false.

    I notice that you find the need to latch unto typing errors rather than anything with any real substance to make your arguments. The personal attacks seem to be very common with you.

    As to definitions, the Bible does not hold to the difinition given by Mark, unless you approach the Bible by saying, “This is the definition, so let us find it.”

    Now, if you want to take things literally, the word Gospel means good news. As such it was originally used in the bible in reference to the sacrifice of Christ, the good news of his redeeming power. However, as all news has its details, the term soon came to encompass all things that are related to this one event, or that come out of it. This is why Paul states that the atonement was the first thing he taught, but does not say it was the only thing he taught (which would have been an outright lie anyway).

    So, by the understanding of the LDS and the support of the Bible, the Gospel is the atoning sacrifice of Christ and all things that were made possible by that sacrifice. To us this includes repentence, obedience, and all the ordinances that are required for salvation. To you it includes nothing beyond that sacrifice.

    As to Josh’s comment, he hit it right on the head as to your attitude in regards to yourselves and us. You may not like it, and I thought it a little out of character for him, but that is exactly how you act.

    7JBR

    June 13, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    Shem,

    I know that your only way to avoid the falsehood of Mormonism when it’s being applied to it’s practical conclusion (in such a way that doesn’t allow for rabbit hole besides the point ya da ya da…) is to cry personal attacks. For the novice or timid that attempts to converse with Mormons such as yourself, such a ploy could work.

    Mark is indeed correct for there is no good news in a gospel definition like what you described ” repentence, obedience, and all the ordinances that are required for salvation”

    Why we don’t listen … very simply:

    “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” Ephesians 5:11 KJV

    or

    ” Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” NIV

    .. I suppose exposing the fruitless deeds of darkness one would cry personal attacks.

    8shematwater

    June 13, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    JBR

    I point out your tactic of personal attacks to let people know what caliber of person is attempting to lead them to Christ. It has nothing to do with my ability to reason and discuss.

    You said “If you’re going to remark on someone’s (Josh in this instance) perfect reply, it would help if you started with yourself……. “Says everything you perfectly”

    This is a personal attack made against a typing error, a thing of insignificance. You felt it necessary to make a comment not on what I said, but on the mistake I made in typing it out. That is a personal attack, and an attempt to discredit me based on a small error.

    I don’t have to avoid any falseness, as the LDS has more truth then you could possibly comprehend. When being applied to its practical conclusion it is the most glorious conception of God and man that could have been devised, and is the only one that I have ever seen that does not contradict itself.

    The problem is that you don’t have any clue as to what is really taught, but prefer your twisted version, which is false and thus will always fail; much like your own religion.

    Honestly, it is you people who avoid the issue, especially when we are told that logic simply just doesn’t apply, so any logical discussion will be ignored. There is more evasion and double talk coming from you than there ever is coming from us.

    As to the Gospel, I find nothing good about what you claim the gospel to be. There is nothing good in not having free will. There is nothing good in not being part of your own salvation.

    There is peace in knowing that what you do matters. There is joy in knowing that Christ is always there to help you do what is needed. There is great news is knowing that through him all things are possible, even the living of a righteous life to qualify for salvation. There is no better news than to know that I have a choice, that God cares about me enough to show me what the right choice is, but still gives me the freedom choose on my own.

    That is the biggest difference that I have seen. We actually believe that we matter as individuals.

    9JBR

    June 13, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    Still haven’t caught on Shem ….. your typo is an earthly example of what happens to those who attempt Mormonism’s gospel plan (” repentence, obedience, and all the ordinances that are required for salvation”) according to what God revealed:

    James 2:10

    For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all

    Galatians 2:16

    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    I am showed how you’re discrediting yourself based on a small error…. God revealed how you’re discrediting yourself following Mormonism’s gospel plan in a big way.

    10JBR

    June 13, 2012 at 7:45 pm

    should say:

    I am showing how you’re discrediting yourself based on a small error…. God revealed how you’re discrediting yourself following Mormonism’s gospel plan in a big way.

    11Kent

    June 14, 2012 at 2:56 am

    Yes, you can choose to reject the true gospel of the Bible in favor of a set of laws and ordinances.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    OR

    Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.”

    Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6

    And you can choose to reject the true grace of Jesus Christ by trying to make it after all we can do instead of being a free gift that He gave to us that we can do nothing to earn. Our works count for nothing as it is only Jesus’ work on the cross and His rising again on the third day that saves us.

    2 Nephi 2:23

    23 For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can do.

    OR

    Ephesians 2:8-9

    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    12Kent

    June 14, 2012 at 3:10 am

    I know the Mormon regulars who post here will likely say that what Spencer W Kimball said is not their doctrine but if that is the case, then why did he say that the gospel of Jesus Christ is a set of laws and ordinances?

    Yes, it seems there is some lip service to Jesus Christ sacrifice on the cross but the focus is clear that it is about what men do and not about what Jesus Christ did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day.

    13shematwater

    June 14, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    JBR

    Are you serious? Really? A typing error proves that what we teach is false? How arrogant can you get?

    Isaiah 29: 20-21

    “For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: THAT MAKE A MAN AN OFFENDER FOR A WORD, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.”

    It is actually kind of funny. You can’t argue against anything I say so you have to claim that how I say it proves me wrong.

    14JBR

    June 14, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Shem,

    Actually your reply shows how little you take God seriously.

    You’re actually are the arrogant in view of God demand of “be perfect even as I am”

    Yes shem …. Mormonism’s plan makes you guilty of every command. James 2:10

    And unless you repent and come to the gospel plan as revealed in the Bible, you will be shown as a liar by God for not taking him seriously. 1 John 5:10

    15JBR

    June 14, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Should read:

    You’re actually the arrogant in view of God’s demand of “be ye therefore perfect even as I am perfect”

    16Echo

    June 15, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Mark said: “Instead of inspiring confidence, they introduce doubt as I wonder if I have done everything I need to do to be worthy”

    I am so thankful that our confidence doesn’t rest on our attempts to make ourselves worthy. Our confidence rests in knowing that God loves the unworthy. He’s an amazing God. A God that I truly desire to obey because of the confidence he has given me.

    17joshtried

    June 15, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    “Instead of inspiring confidence, they introduce doubt as I wonder if I have done everything I need to do to be worthy”

    Everybody feels this way at some point. And then we study scripture. If that still “makes you wonder” then perhaps you should re-evaluate your personal dealings with God. I no longer have any “wonder” about what i need to do. I havent had any for a very long time. There are many LDS that will give you this same response (though most will likely word it differently). There are many Christians that wonder if they are truly saved. There are atheists and satanists, and Jedis, all wondering the same thing (yes, jedi is an officially recognized religion in the US). Wonder does not mean false. How many astronomers wondered whether the earth revolved around the sun?

    18Kent

    June 15, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    John 3:36

    36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    It doesn’t say anything about having to be a member of the Mormon Church abut having to be worthy by paying tithes to the Mormon Church, about not having a cup of coffee, about not having a glass of wine, etc, and it doesn’t say anything about having to peform a bunch of rituals and follow a bunch of laws and ordinances to have eternal life. It says, again, WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE! I going to add this to the end of my posts from now on.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    19Kent

    June 15, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    Shem said, “That is the biggest difference that I have seen. We actually believe that we matter as individuals.”

    We also believe that we matter as individuals and what we do is important in fact Jesus Christ believes we matter as individuals as He died for each and every one of of us and it is His blood that was shed and His rising again on the third day, and nothing else, that gives us eternal life.

    But we also believe that anything we do has nothing to do wit our salvation, that grace doesn’t come after all we can do but it is a free gift that was given freely by our savior Jesus Christ.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    20choosethechrist

    June 15, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    Bottom line: Any Mormon who is not living 100% free from sin (and that includes the sin in your heart, not just the outward sin you have committed) is in BIG trouble because your “Jesus” can not save you until you are living 100% “right”. That is NOT good news and that is NOT the true gospel. The true gospel is good news: you are forgiven, perfect, holy, and righteous ONLY after you have put your faith in Christ alone for the forgiveness of your sins because it is ONLY through the shed blood of Christ on the cross that makes you worthy enough to enter the presence of a holy God. PERIOD!

    21Kent

    June 17, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Contrast the Mormon way to eternal life, which starts at the temple but you still are not there and you can never have eternal life unless you first enter the temple, perform all its rituals and obey all of the laws and ordinances but you still don’t know that you have eternal life.

    While with the blood of Jesus we can enter the Holiest place and we have eternal life by the blood of Jesus. So the contrast is between what we do (the Mormon way) and what Jesus did to save us and give us eternal life by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day. Jesus is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE!

    “TO ENTER THE TEMPLE YOU MUST BE A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH WHO KEEPS BAPTISMAL AND OTHER COVENANTS.

    You need to attend church.

    You need to have a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

    You need to have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer.

    You need to have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel (Christs original message and authority).

    You need to believe and support the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who has the authority (given to him by God) to be God’s representative to the world. You need to support the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators. You need to sustain the other authorities the Church as well.

    You need to live a chaste life.

    You need to treat your family right and support them.

    YOU NEED TO SUPPORT THE CHURCH AND ITS TEACHINGS.

    YOU NEED TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

    You have to be honest in your dealings with your fellowmen.

    YOU NEED TO PAY A FULL TITHE.

    YOU CAN’T DRINK ALCOHOL, USE TOBACCO, OR ABUSE DRUGS”

    OR

    Hebrews 10:19

    19 THEREFORE, BRETHREN, HAVING BOLDNESS TO ENTER THE HOLIEST BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS

    John 3:36

    36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

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    The True Gospel

    By markcares21 Comments

    Categories: George Albert Smith, grace and worthiness

    Tags: church of jesus christ of latter day saints, George Albert Smith, gospel, grace, LDS, Mormonism, Mormons, witnessing to Mormons

    Chapter 12 of the Teachings of George Albert Smith is the first of three chapters encouraging LDS members in their missionary activities. As is stated, this chapter “focuses on the reasons we share the gospel”.

    Although these words are not directly used in this chapter, the reason for sharing the gospel is the belief that the LDS Church is the only true church. For example, Jose L. Alonso, one of its General Authority, stated at last October’s General Conference, “I bear witness that President Thomas S. Monson is Their prophet and that this is the only true Church upon the face of the earth.” Chapter 12 reflects that by saying that the only persons who possess divine authority are in the LDS Church.

    The other reason why Mormonism teaches it is important to do mission work is because it feels it is the only one that has the true gospel. For example, President Smith states, in reference to pastors: “These good men, not understanding the gospel and the necessity for the ordinances of the same, confine their teachings very largely to moral lessons and to reading the psalms to their congregations. Isolated passages of scripture are chosen as texts for addresses on virtue, honesty, etc., all of which are helpful and uplifting, but few sermons are preached explaining the requirements made of every soul before we can enter the kingdom of heaven. It is this information of which the world is most in need. Few ministers have a message for their congregations that inspires in them the belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ and the necessity of partaking of the ordinances of the gospel prescribed by him.” I find it interesting that he sees most sermons largely as moral lessons and not as pointing to the wonderful things Jesus has done for us.

    But what is most important to see is how Mormons define gospel differently than the Bible does. The gospel, according to the Bible, is simply the good news that Jesus, as our substitute, lived a perfect life for us, died a sacrificial death for us, and solely on the basis of that, God sees us as worthy and perfect in his sight. But when the LDS Church talks about the fulness of the Gospel it means much more. “In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom.” (True to the Faith, p. 76) As that quote shows, included in the LDS gospel are many things that humans are to do. That is emphasized in chapter 12 of the Teachings of George Albert Smith when he states: “My understanding is that the most important mission that I have in this life is: first, to keep the commandments of God, as they have been taught to me; and next, to teach them to my Father’s children who do not understand them.” Note how when he talks about his most important mission he mentions nothing about teaching what Jesus did for him.

    Sometimes Mormons wonder why Christians react so adversely to the teachings of Mormonism. This is one example. What Mormonism calls the fulness of the gospel I see as a terrible corruption and complete destruction of the true gospel. The true gospel is from first to last about what Jesus has done for us. Any mention of what I have to do in order to be accepted by God is not gospel, good news. Instead of relieving me, such things burden me. Instead of inspiring confidence, they introduce doubt as I wonder if I have done everything I need to do to be worthy. But most importantly of all, they rob Jesus of the glory of doing everything for me. “To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.” (Ephesians 1:6) Being accepted by God through grace – that is the true gospel. And praising God for it is the most important mission of all!

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    1Kent

    June 11, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    Mark has hit the nail on the head, the focus is either on everything we do as past Mormon leader Spencer Kimball said the gospel is a set of laws and ordinances, the Mormon gospel, or it is all about what Jesus did to save us, sinners who can never save themselves, the true gospel of the Bible.

    Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.”

    Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6

    OR

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    I know the Mormons who post here have said that 1 Corinthians 15 shows that Paul was only teaching the first principles of the gospel here but that is a stretch as Paul did not say there is more to the gospel only that it is what he first taught because Paul did, in his missions, teach other things besides the gospel.

    2JBR

    June 11, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    Yes… What Mormonism calls the fulness of the gos

  199. .

    Cut and pasted by: Kent on June 17, 2012 at 8:16 am

    "Contrast the Mormon way to eternal life, which starts at the temple … "

    WRONG!

    Your are so filled with hate for Mormon Christians that you do not know anything about the objects of your hatred.

    I refer you to the Fourth Article of Faith.

    When you manage to locate that, then you will find where Latter-day Saint Christians begin their journey to salvation.

    1. Your ignorance is appalling. Jesus does not approve of such anti-Christian behaviour.

    2. The Bible does not require anyone to believe it is 100% correct. I suggest that you consult someone that knows something about the Bible before making such irrational statements.

    3. The kind of hatred that runs your engines is nowhere advocated by Jesus.

    4. Hell is not located directly under your feet.

    <

  200. Re-post:

    Posted by: Ronnie on February 3, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    Non-LDS Christians should get used to the plain fact that latter-day saints believe in Jesus every whit as strongly as they do. The Jesus of the Holy Bible is one that was in the pre-existence with God his Father, and who came to earth through Mary in the incarnation; that he was crucified, that he died, that he was resurrected, and that he ascended to heaven from where he will come top judge the quick and the dead.

    He, Jesus the Christ, is the Only Begotten of the Father; his Firstborn, and our Saviour, Lord, redeemer, and King, as well as our Advocate and Mediator with the Father in our behalf.

    By the redemption and perfect atonement he wrought by the shedding of his innocent blood he enables those that have faith in him as God’s Son and Saviour to be righteous, cleansed from their sins and its effects through the principle of repentance, and enable the sons and daughters of God to stand clean again in his presence.

    All else is commentary, concerning which, no body of Christians en bloc have been able and are still not able to come to general across-the-board agreement.

    I acknowledge that you consider yourself saved in God’s kingdom by your faith, and that you will concede that Latter-day Saints [Mormons] are just as saved as you are and for the same reasons, namely because of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and their willingness to serve and obey him.

    Ronnie

  201. .

    On May 4th 2012, Kent wrote:

    "Brian or other Mormons, doesn’t it seem like something is missing from your testimonies if the focus is about Smith, your church, or the Book of Mormon and the focus isn’t on Jesus Himself?"

    Yesterday, Kent wrote that a Christian had to believe the Bible was 100% true and accurate.

    So, according to Kent's own [shifting] diktats, the fact that he now includes the Bible as a focus and takes his eyes off Jesus, if just for a moment, and makes acceptance of a 100% accurate Bible an essential for salvation shows that he is either forgetful, unstable

    When bearing my testimony, my focus is on the reality of the Living God, his Son as my savour and redeemer, and then on the ways that God has blessed me. Does that meet with your approval?

  202. .

    Kent,

    What are we supposed to find edifying in the following that you posted?

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  203. Ronnie, I don't hate Mormons, I actually care about people that is why I spend a fair amount of my spare time coming to sites like this to point people to the light that is the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. It is my ongoing mission to do so, plant seeds of faith.

    But it is true, Mormons teach that people cannot have eternal life unless they are first temple worthy to enter there in the first place but they still don't know if they have eternal life even if go through the temple rituals and obey the laws and ordianances of the temple

    Leah and Jake, did I get this wrong? If some of the specifics were off, still, the main point, that we can't have eternal life unless we are temple worth first is correct.

    Ironic that the very people Mormons should pay attention to what they say, ex Mormons, are the very people they discredit going in labeling them apostates.

  204. Ronnie, that is how learn who Jesus is by reading God's word, the Bible, regarding Him. It doesn't take the focus off of Jesus at all.

  205. .

    Lent.

    Reading the Book of Mormon finds Jesus at even greater focus, mention, attention, etc, all the things you evidently praise when they occur in the Bible. Have you even read the Book of Mormon? The Book of Mormon keeps the focus steadily on Jesus and the salvation he offers to those that faithfully follow him. Why anyone that considers themsel;vbes any kind of a Christian, even one such as you, kent, that hraasses MKormons Ch ristians and attacks them by telling us wer are not Christians, wioll find Jesus C hrist in the Book of Mormon.

    I think you need to reconsider you attitude towards Mormons, per se, since your attacks against them are the thick part of your threads. I see no love, no concern, no care for our souls. I see only a hard unchristian attitude that is determined to prove that we are not Christians when we insist we are, and a steady supply of false logical plays from you to attempt to convince us that we are not Christians, that we cannot be Christians and that we have no hope of salvation by our personal faith in Jesus Christ.

    YOU say,

    "All you need to be saved is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. After that, you can please yourself what you do. You can lie, kill, be a fornicator, and God does not mind because you are saved and always will be."

    Well, Kent, I hate to disappoint you, but I have read the Holy Bible and it does not give Christians a licence to 'continue in sin' because OSAS . The TRUE Bible says that Christians are to continue to believe and to live their lives in conformity to the will of God, the direction of the apostles and according to God's moral code.

    Your version must be the one that Adolph Hitler followed when he claimed that by murdering Jews he as doing the work of the Lord. That would explain a lot. The difference between you and Hitler is that Hitler did not pretend to love his victims but you do.

    If you believe the Bible is 100% without error, how do you explain the textual errors that generations of Jews and Christians have identified?

    Does the sun 'come up' and 'go down'? Does the earth have 'four corners." are there 'four winds.'

    Perhaps you have your own, expurgated version of the Bible thjat gives you a licence to copntion ut to be a sinner after you have conme to Christ in repentence and come to faith inhim as your Saviour.'

    Which special version is that?

  206. Kent: Yes Mormons believe to live with God in the Celestial Kingdom one MUST go to the Mormon temple and take part in the Endowment ceremony and be married in the temple. To get into the temple one must be found "worthy" which includes paying 10% of your income and a laundry list of other requirements. Mormons might beat around the bush when answering this question, or like Ronnie outright LIE about it, but yes that is the truth. No one who has not become a member of the Mormon church and gone through their temples will enter the Celestial Kingdom with God in the Mormon afterlife. If one chooses to say otherwise they are lying, either outright or by omission, because it is 100% true and verifiable.

    Kent have you had enough abuse from Ronnie yet? You need to join Jake and I in ignoring him completely…he twists your words, insults you and your intelligence, and now he has dared to compare you to HITLER! Hitler!? Really? I'd laugh if it wasn't so disgusting. If none of us responds to him, maybe he will realize that his snide, nasty, uppity attitude and ridiculous insults will never win anyone over to Mormonism.

  207. Leeys is ignoring ronnie so much that she mentions him in almost evry post. he has got up her nose and she is so blasted angrey she can't let it go. she is the reeson i dont go to church anymore. she gives church a bad name. she is mad

  208. I have to address the persecution complex of Mormons with a bit of a rant…I am so tired of Mormons acting like they have been "attacked" and "persecuted" and "hated" because people find the doctrine they believe in to be false. People can disagree with your theology and state why without it "hating" you. As a mother of 5 and an Army wife, I have a very LOW tolerance for whiny men who cannot have a discussion with someone with a differing belief system without crying foul and playing the victim. And then to compare a person disagreeing with you on an internet blog to HITLER?! You have lost all credibility if that is where you have to go in the conversation. No one is at your door trying to run you out of town or kill you. No one is murdering millions of Mormons or putting them in camps. GET OVER YOURSELF, it's not that bad. It's just typed words on your computer, you're going to live.

    Now men, can we please stop playing the victim card, crying about being attacked, and whining about how your hated and just have an adult discussion? Man up. I have encountered this victim mentality from several men on this site, and it's cowardly.

  209. Matthew: You don't know me or have ever met me or even know what church I attend, so for you to blame me for you not attending church anymore is about as silly as Kent being like Hitler. You can man up too and take responsibility for your own actions and decisions, because I play no part in them.

  210. Wow, in all my years I have never experienced such hatred against me, especially for just expressing my beliefs and trying to back them up with Bible passages. If someone can't respond to what I post without making personal attacks such as comparing me to Hitler, then I will no longer respond to anything this person says ever again.

    Ronnie said, "Your version must be the one that Adolph Hitler followed when he claimed that by murdering Jews he as doing the work of the Lord. That would explain a lot. The difference between you and Hitler is that Hitler did not pretend to love his victims but you do."

    I don't have any victims just people who disagree with what I believe and most, such as Joshua who runs this blog, can do so in a respectful manner. But since Ronnie can't seem to do so in a respectful way, I will not respond to anything he says ever again. Not only do I not have any victims, really, I am the victim here of an attack against my person.

    Exodus 20:16

    16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

  211. Ronnie posted this directed to me:

    "YOU say,

    “All you need to be saved is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. After that, you can please yourself what you do. You can lie, kill, be a fornicator, and God does not mind because you are saved and always will be.”

    Well, Kent, I hate to disappoint you, but I have read the Holy Bible and it does not give Christians a licence to ‘continue in sin’ because OSAS . The TRUE Bible says that Christians are to continue to believe and to live their lives in conformity to the will of God, the direction of the apostles and according to God’s moral code."

    I have never said any such thing. That is what Ronnie thinks I am saying clouded by the prism of Mormonism. Ronnie, show one quote I have ever said that says this, ever, you can't because I have never said those things, it is you saying I said them.

    What I say is that no, being saved only by the blood of Jesus doesn't give anyone a license to sin and if someone is living a sinful lifestyle, then that is evidence that someone may not be a true believer in Christ at all.

    But what I believe is that we do good works because we are saved, it is a result from being saved, but they don't contribute one bit to our salvation because grace doesn't come after all we can do but is a free gift that we can do nothing to get as it only comes from the blood of Jesus shed on the cross in our behalf.

    Ronnie, that is it, I will not answer anything you say ever again so go on and compare me to Hitler all you want but realize you are breaking one of the ten commandments, "“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor," but also when you do so when you do so realize that no reasonable or rational person will believe what you are saying about me.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  212. Hey Guys, I am back! Sorry for the long delay, I was away for sometime. Teaching and spending time with my Girlfriend (Who is Mormon- and now she is drifting away from the Mormon Church because I have been teaching her about Jesus Christ.)

    The hardest part for her, is that of Works. I told her I understand completely, since you were born and raised in the church, it is all you have been taught (well among other things, of course.)

    She has been more in focus of the Bible lately, more into the OT. Which I am glad, but keep telling her, she will see a lot of differences when she reads the New Testament. Well that is just the update for now.

    So, Kent and Leah, it's great to see you guys on here again, defending Christ and his truth. Such Great things.

    However, LDS Christians do not exist. You are right, their path to eternal life does not begin at the temple. It begins with praying to God about your faith, and which faith is correct. Like I have pointed out many times. Faith is not something that manefests unto you. Faith is with the person and faith cannot be taken away.

    Since your have to follow another Master (Joseph Smith and your prophets) and believe in God, without faith but works, how can you get into heaven by serving both? You CANNOT.

    The Gospel was given unto us, by his Prophets in the PAST and through Jesus Christ. Perverting it is adding unto it. You teach things that are not in the Bible. You believe that Christ has only drank juice, but knowing the times back, wine was popular to consume especially with supper.

    Since Christ is still living, and that he is the High Priest, you have no authority over anyone. Only God does. You act of you are advanced. If you are, why have you discriminated Christians in believing and trusting in Christ.

    You say we have "Part of the Truth" but you still discriminate us. That is all you have to have been doing. A little story for you:

    When I sat down with the Bishop (Bodine-Provo Ward) He told me not to COMPARE the scriptures but just to live Christ Like. I refused. I told him I can live Christ like as much as I want. But I am not perfect, Christ knows this. This was the reason why he covered our sins, because he KNOWS that we cannot be perfect, and that we are all slaves to sin. He freed us. God tells us to test all things and hold fast to what is good (His Word. Which is the Gospel, which is THE BIBLE.)

    After telling him that, he said:

    You are a very intelligent young man. you know your words and you know your bible very well. There are not a lot of people who come to ask for excommunication with the heartfelt sincere attitude that you have. He asked me why I do not feel bitter.

    I said, "even though I feel betrayed by man, and that I sinned by following them, I reconized my sin, repented to God, asking him to forgive me and with all my heart, I believe I am Forgiven, because Christ loves me.

    He went on to ask me why I believe the Gospel is that simple.

    I proceeded to tell tell him, that the Gospel is not simple. We learn something every day. We learn more and more. But Christ told us, in him we are saved. He gave us a GIFT. We cannot work for a gift that was given to us. We can choose to accept nor deny that gift. But if you deny Christ, he will deny you in front of God.

    He said, Is that the only Gospel.

    I said, although Christs teaching of the Gift is part of the Gospel, it is also THE Salvation. Again, there is more to the Gospel.

    Although the Excommunication has not been official yet because it has been taking a long time, in my heart, I know it is not a piece of paper that decides my place in heaven (Temple Recommend) nor the works, but the trust and belief that IN Christ I am saved.

    He told me to meet up with him again to speak. I told him I was moving in three days. So, we did not meet again. But he respected me and knew that he was not higher or more advanced than I was. He understood for the first time in years what Free Will was, because I used it.

    Another story,

    My roommate was on a mission and was very proud. But he also felt Pride that he SERVED a mission and that he finally was home and was MORE worthy he ever was and was more worthy than I, since at the time I just joined the Church for like 5 months. But later on down the road when I finally found the Truth, He bore his testimony, which was odd… it ended by saying,

    I know this is true, I SERVED a mission. I spent two years of my life knowing.

    Then I said: Well, no offense, but unlike you, My mission will never ends. I will not stop serving Christ. The mission will end when I die. When I am saved by Christ, through his GRACE.

    All he said was "Wow you don't have to be contentious about it."

    I said I wasn't. I haven't been boasting onto others about what WORKS I have done, and because of this and that I am more worthy than others. To be honest, You are no better than I am, and I am no better than you. Although, I do know that I am saved, and no work can work your way into heaven, and this is not that I boast of, but what I am informing you on.

    He apologized and said he is sorry that I am making the biggest mistake in my life.

    I assured him that I am not making a mistake in believing and trusting all my heart into the Lord, Jesus Christ, Kings of Kings.

    So, Ronnie and Brian, not all of us are ''Contentious" and it is funny how YOU speak for all your fellow Mormons that you are not ever contentious.

    You can boast to Christ about what works you have done, but it has been saith unto you before, that those believeth (Jesus) in me will be saved, and those who do not, will be perished.

    If you read the bible, there is a passage that talks about boasting works to Christ, he tells us specifically what he says about that.

    J.

  213. Hello Jake, it seems like someone is being contensious is something that is used to keep Mormons from questioning what they are being told just as "the brethern have spoken" is doing the same thing. They don't want someone to "test all things and hold fast to what is good," which is what the Bible says to do.

    I think a lot of Mormons would be surprised to know that I go through every week and lookup the passages in the Bible that my pastors are quoting during their sermons and I read a little bit ahead and a little bit behind those passages to see if the context fits with what they are teaching and if I ever have any questions about whether what they are preaching is square with the Bible, I ask them about it and they don't mind in the least and not one time have they told me I was being contensious for doing so in fact, they welcome it. Jake, my bet is that this is something that Mormons don't do.

  214. Kent, you are correct, that is something that they can't do. You would win that bet. They really have no "free agency" in their Church. They really don't have leaders other than Bishops and they really don't give lessons. Instead during ''Priesthood sessions" they have young men who have the priesthood teach the lesson out of a handbook. I think it is Gospel Principles, it has been awhile since I have been inside the Mormon Church, and I will gladly not be going back. How can these young men teach something they do not understand other than reading out of a handbook.

    They do not question others. They just agree and tell examples of their lives. At least that is what happened inside ALL of the wards that I have participated in Utah.

    And I admire those who question. If you question, you want to know more about understanding what Gods Will is. By holding onto whats good, but testing things. You are doing what is right, not only for yourself, but for your faith and conviction in Christ.

    Keep at it bro.

    They preach against the Christians, but in turn call themselves Christians. They deny Christians (Followers of Christ) and they judge them.

    Kent, don't you find it odd, that they persecute Christians but see themselves as one?

    They think they are going door to door to preach Good news, and when they do, they try to force themselves in rather than letting free will take its course.

    And when being spoken unto during lessons, they say they really don't want to waste our time but only have time to teach ''THIER" Gospel, in which is really not a Gospel at all?

    J.

  215. Jake or Leah, what I find odd is that Mormon missionaries are called elders but they are younger than I am. Are they considered above me spiritually by the Mormon Church , my elders so to speak? When I ask them why they are called elders they never give me an answer just that it is a title they have.

  216. No. Absolutely not. But remember Kent, it is not about better or higher spiritually, but your faith in Christ. It is hard to measure among others with spirituality since only Christ knows our hearts, but I would assume you meant your faith.

    They are inclined to think that they are better spiritually than you are, but here is the problem. Your spirituality begins with either accepting or denying Christ. So.. If you do not accept Christ, that was your only Chance.

    However if you do, then you do accept Christ, believe in him and trust in him fully and completely. They are not considered above you. ONLY MORMONS CONSIDER THEMSELVES, not Christians, nor Catholics nor Jews, Lutherans or Baptists. But they like to think they are. They are not your elders nor your boss, remember, they are of this world, and God is not of this world.

    He is your boss.

    Christ is my boss. He is AN AMAZING Boss!

    Elders are people who are suppose to be married and have kids and the wisdom (Mormons lack wisdom, because James 1:5 is stated incorrectly for them, I would think they would know the difference between knowledge and Wisdom, but hilariously they don't. These ''titles'' that they call themselves are being perverted in the traditional customs. Now that Missionary teenagers who are just getting out of their puberty I would assume so, since they usually dwell in fantasy (ruling planets, having a family and rule on Kabob) rather than reality (that they are being scammed), they think they know everything.

    They are proud to be called elders because they compare it to serving in the military, and their parents think of it like that since it is a tradition in their ''religion' ..

    However, I feel insulted by those who boast about it more than those who served for this country. I feel insulted by those who are inclined to think they are above us because they think they know everything.

    Kent, if they did know everything, they would have answered all of our questions rather than beating around the bush.

    It is not okay to serve man, but since they have free will, and refuse to use it like we Christians do, then let that be of their doing.

    I do not know everything, but those who served on a mission is no better than you Kent. They are sinners. Ask any Mormon on here if he as sinned. If he did,'' their perverted Gospel'' cannot save him. Only the Gospel that we have Kent, can save him. His so called Gospel is impossible, it goes directly towards what Leah was saying about drowning in the Ocean.

    Let me be clear about Perverted Gospel. The meaning is to: Add on to. In which your book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, Journal of Discourses, History of the Church, Seven first Versions are.

    Christians KNOW the Gospel. THEY have the Gospel.

    Mormons have it, but do not believe it is COMPLETE.

    Like i said, the difference between Christianity and Mormonism is basically based on two things.

    Christianity is DONE

    Mormoninsm is DOING

    These are two entirely different things. Ronnie and Brian cannot ever dispute that. Christianity is ENTIRELY different. That is a FACT.

    J.

  217. Kent: From my perspective, "elder" is just a title they get for being a missionary and its more like a badge of pride to them. They do not apply it biblically, it seems more like a title given to make them feel important and it's not even used for return missionaries later on in life…at least my brother who served a mission many years ago no longer refers to himself as "elder" he is just "brother" now. But I am a woman and did not attend any priesthood meetings, I wasn't in the "men's club" so to speak so there might be more to it in their eyes and I just never questioned it…growing up I just thought it was a title and it certainly didn't put them over the bishop or any older men in the ward, nor did they act like they had a position of authority over any older men that I witnessed. So it doesn't hold the same biblical meaning, like so many other terms from the Bible it's changed by Mormonism.

  218. And again, I'm sure there's more to it, probably has to do with rank, but I'm a girl and I didn't question it or worry about it. Everyone had titles in the church, and I just knew regular people were brother or sister, missionaries were elders, and the bishop was called bishop. I never called the boys "deacon" because they were all close to my age when I attended and none of us saw them in a position of authority!

  219. Jake, of course I don't think anyone is spiritually more advanced than anyone else but I just find it puzzling that some 20 year old, younger than me, is called an elder. I was just asking if they are called elders is because they are considered (by Mormons) more spritually advanced than non Mormons.

    Anyway, I found some interesting Mormon writing that says people can't come to where God is unless they are continually keeping God's commandments. Not just trying their best to keep them but actually continually keeping them, an impossible task.

    DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 25:15: “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.”

    But the good news, the true gospel of the Bible, is that Jesus provided the way through His blood shed on the cross on our behalf and we can be there where God is because of His death on the cross and His rising again on the third day!

    And, no, I am not saying that because we believe in Jesus we are given a license to sin and I have never, ever said any such thing because if someone is living a sinful lifestyle, then that may be evidence that this person isn't really a true believer in Christ at all.

    But consider that, because of Jesus shed blood on the cross and our belief in Him, that His blood washes us inside our hearts, we become new creations in Christ as are born again, so that gives us a way to be able to live moral lives but it is still about what He did and not about what we do as our efforts, "our righteouness is as of filthy rags," in comparison to His righteouness, the standard we have to reach if it is at all about what we do to get there instead of what He did.

    People, believe in what He did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day and you can know for sure now, not later, that you have eternal life!

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THE LORD JESUS AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD HAS RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, YOU WILL BE SAVED. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 FOR “WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.”

    John 3:14-17

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

    John 3:36

    36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  220. To anybody who doesn't agree with what I am posting, we can disagree just like Joshua, the moderator of this blog, and I have been doing for over two years now and we have been doing so respectfully to each other for the entire time.

    So please don't hate me for what I believe as I don't hate you.

  221. Mormons, I have some good news and I have some bad news to tell you.

    First the bad news, you never ever get to be a god. Disappointed?

    Now the Good News, if you believe and completely trust in who Jesus Christ is and what only what He could do by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day, you have eternal life in the mansion where God is forever, and ever, and ever!

    How can anyone possibly be disappointed with being eternally in presence of our God who loves us?

    So the Christian definition is different than the Mormon definition in that eternal life doesn't mean exaltation as gods ourselves.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  222. The Atonement of Jesus Christ

    Faith in the Saviour

    Christian Works

    Obedience to the Father and Christ

    Continuing Faithfulness &

    Enduring to the End Lead to Eternal Salvation

    By Ronnie Bray

    Mormonism 101

    What did Saint Paul have in mind when he wrote:

    " Why, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Do all things without murmurings and disputing: That you may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the middle of a crooked and perverse nation,among whom you shine as lights in the world"

    [Philippians2:12-14]

    Are these mere empty words without meaning or force for Christian adoption and exercise? Paul says that what is working in us is God. Therefore, if we do not do the works that God commands Christians to do it is because God is not in us. And what are we to say to those that deny God and his works and their place in the lives of the faithful that are willingly obedient to God, whose commandments, according to Jesus Christ, we must keep if we are to enter the kingdom of heaven?

    "Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name?and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23)

    It is an old and well worn tirade that is trotted out time after time as if it were relevant that Mormons seek to earn their salvation by works, yet nothing could be further from the truth.

    Mormons are not simpletons, nor are they ignorant of what Jesus and the apostles teach in the Books of the Holy Bible, but they do not fall prey to the minimalist heresy of choosing which passages of the Bible to accept as divinely imposed on believers, at the expense of neglecting all other passages making demands on their obedience to God as if they did not exist.

    Mormons believe in the complete picture as expressed by generations of prophets and apostles that is set out in a core of essential beliefs and practices that establish necessary doctrines and rites and observances for those that would please God and be made partakers of the salvation wrought by the atonement of Jesus Christ and dispensed by the Grace of God to those that do the will of the Father in heaven.

    To do less than this, to believe less than this, is to set at nought the things of God, and those that do so can not hope to please God or be made partakers of the divine nature as joint heirs with Christ of all that the Father has.

    "No one can please God without faith. Whoever goes toGod must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)

    Seeking God requires activity on our part, and that activity is rewarded by the gift of faith and knowledge that God lives.For he that cometh to God – In any way – as a worshipper.

    This is alike required in public worship, in the family, and in secret devotion.

    He that cometh to God – The man who professes that it is his duty to worship God, must, if he acts rationally, do it on the conviction that there is such a Being infinite, eternal,unoriginated, and self-existent; the cause of all other being; on whom all being depends; and by whose energy, bounty, and providence, all other beings exist, live, and are supplied with the means of continued existence and life.

    He must believe, also, that God rewards them that diligently seek him; that he is not indifferent about his own worship; that he requires adoration and religious service from men; and that he blesses, and especially protects and saves, those who in simplicity and uprightness of heart seek and serve him. This requires faith, such a faith as is mentioned above; a faith by which we can please God; and now that we have an abundant revelation, a faith according to that revelation; a faith in God through Christ the great sin-offering, without which a man can no more please him, or be accepted of him, than Cain was. (Clarke's Commentary on the Bible)

    This reward is not referred to our merits, but to the free promise.

    "[Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." (Romans 4:20-25)

    Likewise, Latter-day Saints obey God because God commands, and whoso is not obedient to God’s guidance neither worships him, or believes in his promises.

    "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Romans6:16)

    Latter-day Saints obey God in whatever God commands. The scriptures give no leave for uninspired man todetermine anything contrary to the revealed will of God whether in olden times or in modern days, unless God himself so directs.

    It was not Peter that removed the herem on animals adjudged non-kashrut under the Levitical Code of Purity: it was God that revealed that the herem was removed, signalling also that the Gospel of Christ could be shared with the nations, whereas previously it had been almost exclusively presented to those of beit-yisrael. Jesus Christ does not offer salvation to those that do not obey him.

    "[Jesus Christ] being made perfect, became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb. 5:9)

    Salvation, then, comes by not only having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, but by obeying Christ. To those that do obeyChrist, God grants the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. (Acts 5:32)

    The gathering together of several essential principles is granted to the obedient.

    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia,Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance. (1 Peter 1:1-2)

    The foreknowledge of God, our obedience to Jesus Christ,the blessing of what his atonement accomplishes in remitting our sins, and the Grace of God are bound together inseparably, but not to the exclusion of other necessarythings, as blessings to those that come to Christ and are perfected in him.

    Peter continues to impress on us the necessity of conforming our lives to the pattern of holiness established by the God of Israel.

    "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto youat the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it iswritten, ‘Be ye holy; for I am holy.’ (1 Peter 1:13-16)

    The need for Christians to keep themselves from sinning is emphasised often, and conformity to this rule established beyond dispute. This is not the righteousness that one Christian seeks, in his error seeking to be the master of others to thereby impose on another Christian, but is the righteousness that the Christian imposes on himself as a worthy disciple of Christ. Christians prove their worthiness of Christ by obeying him.

    "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, isnot worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38)

    Worthiness means deserving, and it is evident from the Scriptures that Christian disciples must make themselves deserving of Christ and his blessings and salvation by their conduct.

    " He that taketh NOT his cross" – i.e. He who is not ready, after my example, to suffer death in the cause of my religion, is not worthy of me [and] does not deserve to be called my disciple.

    (Clarke's Commentary on the Bible)

    Peter says that our obedience to the truth purifies our souls, meaning that by our obedience to Christ we are made partakers of the fruits of his atonement and are thereby rendered sinless or pure.

    "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truththrough the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, seethat ye love one another with a pure heart fervently" (I Pet.1:22)

    By these few verses, and there are many more to which appeal is properly made, we see that there are several factors that bring about the salvation of the souls of me, and who can say that one is of greater importance than another when God has caused them all to be shown to us?

    When Jesus was asked which was the greatest commandment, he taught us that it was as found in Deuteronomy 6:5.

    "And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart,and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

    He then proceeded to teach us that the second greatest commandment was that in Leviticus 19:18.

    "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD."

    Moreover, the next thing he said was,

    "There is none other commandment greater than these are." (Mark 12:31)

    The intention of Jesus teaching us in this manner is to suggest that those that love God with their whole beings, show also regard and have affection for their neighbours with the same degree of affinity with which they esteem themselves. Can we justifiably suppose that those that profess with their lips to be Christians, but nonetheless neglect to obey the second Great Commandment are obeying the will of God according to Jesus?

    If we cannot,then what are we to make of them? What, if anything, do they make of themselves? We might be justified in supposing that they have formed a novel and distinct religion from Christianity that neither honours or obeys the commandments that Jesus was particular to deliver to the saints, that emphasised the principle that obedience to his teachings was nothing more than obedience to the will of God, and that obedience thereto was the essential link or key to their redemption, because God has willed it so to be.

    The novel form of the fullness of ancient Christianity I have termed ‘minimalism,’ for obvious reasons.

    Minimalism has, in effect, lopped off a branch here and a branch there of the original tree of Christianity that originated with Jesus and his apostles, having determined that they were not essential to the core message of redemption through Jesus Christ.

    Fanatical paring by minimalists has been so hard that little of the richness of New Testament Christianity is left, and so the expression of their Christianity is become a trunk devoid of roots, branches and leaves, that is chillingly stark when compared to the splendour of the Church whose record is written on the pages of the New Testament.

    In minimalism, Jesus Christ stands front and centre, but God the Father has been subsumed into the Christological caricature of the biblical Godhead so as to be almost non-existent.

    In the Godhead expressed variously throughout the Bible, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost stand together, firm and well defined as Creator, Redeemer, and Comforter, overlapping in their separate functions to form a unity of the kind that Jesus prayed his disciples would reach in fellowship and community, being separate persons coming together after the pattern of the Godhead being one in purpose, mission,and doctrine.

    "Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:21-22)

    There is a mutual unity of the Father and the Son, who are one in power and purpose, and in understanding and affection; which union, though it infinitely transcends any kind of union among men, or that can be conceived of by men, is here established by Jesus Christ the ideal of the saints’ union one with another, and of their union with thedivine persons, which must be understood not as equalitywith the divinities, but as a similarity.

    There is no source of scepticism so fruitful as internecine quarrels and sectarian divisions.

    Paul distinguishes three essential characteristics of Christian unity as ‘one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.’

    "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Ephesians 4:1-6)

    Minimalism breaks of little parts of biblical theology and deals with them as if they were the whole.

    The dissatisfaction that separation and elevation of individual points leads to need hardly be elucidated here, except to say that it leads inexorably to an imbalance in the principles of revealed religion and thus obscures the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Elevating the Grace of God at the expense of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, as if the sacrifice of the Lamb of God was only incidental to God’s plan of salvation, is a case in point.

    Ignoring Christ’s insistence on obedience infavour of elevating faith as the means of salvation likewise harms the equivalence that discrete principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ have in the Church of Jesus Christ as fundamental doctrines by which believers are brought to wholeness through redemption, cleansing, purifying, forgiveness, and perfection, bundled as a whole and suffused by the infinite love of God for his creatures, each characteristic, individually and jointly, manifesting the Grace of God.

    Distinctive principles of the gospel may be likened to the parts of the body that Paul used to teach an importantlesson to warring church members.

    "For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye,where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, wherewere the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

    "And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

    "And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

    "And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

    "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles,then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

    "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way." (1 Corinthians 12:14-21)

    This lesson is one that single doctrine minimalists must take to heart if they are to recreate the beatific vision of the gospel of Jesus Christ and its many essential doctrinal parts as taught and believed by the first Christian Church, the togetherness of which, and not the elevation of one point over and at the expense of the others, illustrates the beautiful simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ that alone provides for the salvation of our souls.

    This is the word of God from the Holy Bible. Who shall naysay it?

  223. Ronnie, until you apologize to me for comparing me to Hitler, you violated one of the ten commandments by doing so by bearing false witness against me, I not only won't consider and respond to anything you say, I will not even read anything you write. If I see in the first lines of a post from you that you have apologized, I will start reading what you write again.

    Exodus 20:16

    16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

    Ronnie said, "YOU say,

    “All you need to be saved is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. After that, you can please yourself what you do. You can lie, kill, be a fornicator, and God does not mind because you are saved and always will be.”

    Well, Kent, I hate to disappoint you, but I have read the Holy Bible and it does not give Christians a licence to ‘continue in sin’ because OSAS . The TRUE Bible says that Christians are to continue to believe and to live their lives in conformity to the will of God, the direction of the apostles and according to God’s moral code.

    Your version must be the one that Adolph Hitler followed when he claimed that by murdering Jews he as doing the work of the Lord. That would explain a lot. The difference between you and Hitler is that Hitler did not pretend to love his victims but you do.”

    I have never said any such thing what I do say is that bottom line, being saved doesn’t gives us a license to sin but that we live moral lives because we are saved, it follows from our faith but does not contribute to it at all, that because we are born again we have new heart given to us by the blood of Jesus, we are new creations in Christ, with a desire to not live sinful lifestyles and that if we are living sinful lifestyles, it can be evidence that we are not really believers in Christ at all. I think I can safely say there is evidence, by the evil works that he did, that Adollf Hitler was not a believer in Christ.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  224. I guess still no apology from Ronnie for bearing false witness against me by comparing me to Hitler.

    Interesting that Mormons will say that because I believe that it is not about anything we do but it is all about that Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day that saves us. that I am saying that gives us a license to sin as much as we want to and we can still go to heaven when I have said nothing of the sort.

    Ironic that it is Mormons who say that most people, even unbelievers and people who live sinful lifestyles, can go to at least a lower level of heaven, namely the telestial kingdom not me.

    What I believe is that there are only two possible destinations in the afterlife. Heaven in the presence of God and Jesus Christ, eternal life but minus becoming a god ourselves, or having our part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone eternally seperated from God and joining the devil, the false prophet, and the beast.

    So if someone is living a lifestyle as if they have a license to sin, that is evidence that they are heading down the wrong path, if they don't repent, to the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, joining everyone else not found written in the book of life.

    Note especially that unbelievers (the unbelieving) have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone and that doesn't sound like any place such as the so called telestial kingdom which is better than any place on earth now does it?

    Revelation 21:8

    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Revelation 20:15

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    But the good news, the true gospel of the Bible, is that if we believe in who Jesus is and what He did by dying on the cross in our place to save us and rising again on the third day, we are saved from the lake which burns with fire and brimstone and we have eternal life in the presence of God the Father and Jesus Christ.

    I will state once again, that when we are saved we are born again by the blood of Jesus and this is what gives us a new heart to desire to live moral lives and not to live sinful lifestyles but it is still only what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day. So it follows that we do good works because we are saved but not to become saved.

    1 John 5:11-13

    11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    In closing agian:

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  225. I see how Kent has upset his ffelings and accusing Ronny of saying somehting Ronny did not say. This is for the benifit of Kent the Christians. About the Holy Bible Ronnie wroted to Kent:

    “Your version (of the Bibel) must be the one that Adolph Hitler followed when he claimed that by murdering Jews he was doing the work of the Lord. That would explain a lot.

    The difference between you and Hitler is that Hitler did not pretend to love his victims but you do.”

    Thjis is a differentations [sp?] not comparing like with like as Kent argues unwizely. But is it a comparison between Kent and Hitler? If it is then is it a fair comparison? Look at the facts.

    Kent finds fault with Mormon at every verse end and seems to take pleasure as he does so. Look at some of the things he has writed in this thread about Mormons whose feelings he does not hesitate to bruise.

    Kent writed: “I think I can safely say there is evidence, by the evil works that he did, that Adollf Hitler was not a believer in Christ.”

    Kent makes what a person does the mark of Christianity not what a person believes. That shows Kent place all the credit for being a Christian in the works the person does and not in his faith in Jesus.

    Kent sais: “Posted by: Kent on July 6, 2012 at 12:43 pm I guess still no apology from Ronnie for bearing false witness against me by comparing me to Hitler.”

    You only get an apology if Ronny had done what you accuse him of hading done. Comparing you to Hitler. I don’t not see that reading his threads. He said that Hitler said he was doing the work of the Lord by murdering Jews. Ronny did not make that up. He was saying what Hittler said. Look.

    The historical record shows that Hitler believed in God and was convinced he was carrying out God's will.

    Hitler was raised in a Christian family. He went to Christian schools and served as an altar boy in the Christian Church. Growing up in this environment, he surely learned something of the centuries of discrimination and persecution the Church had supported against Jews in Europe.

    Jesuit theologian Peter de Rosa describes the groundwork Christian theology laid for Hitler and the Nazis:

    "[Their] disastrous theology had prepared the way for Hitler and his ‘final solution.’ [The Church published] over a hundred anti-Semitic documents. Not one conciliar decree, not one papal encyclical, bull, or pastoral directive suggest that Jesus’ command, ‘love your neighbor as yourself,' applied to Jews."

    Hitler wrote in his book, Mein Kampf:

    "I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator.

    “By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." He made essentially the same claim in a speech before the Reichstag in 1938.

    Hitler considered himself a Christian until the day he died.

    In 1941 he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals:

    "I am now as before a Catholic (Christian) and will always remain so."

    Hitler was never excommunicated from the Christian Church, and Mein Kampf was not placed on the Church's Index of Forbidden Books.

    Hitler specifically opposed atheism in a 1933 speech in Berlin:

    "We were convinced that the people need and require this (Christian) faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

    Hitler's biographer John Toland explains Christianity’s influence on the Holocaust. He says of Hitler:

    "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God. . .."

    Even after World War II, Catholic assistance to the Nazis continued. The Vatican aided the escape of more Nazis than any other governmental or private entity. Christopher Hitchens adds:

    "It was the Vatican itself, with its ability to provide passports, documents, money, and contacts, which organized the escape network and also the necessary shelter and succor at the other end."

    The Protestant influence on Nazi Germany was no better. Hitler is said to have greatly admired the German founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther. Among Luther's many denunciations of the Jews, there are such religious sentiments as:

    "The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves," and "We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them."

    When Hitler was asked in 1933 what he planned to do about the Jews, he said he would do what Christians had been preaching for centuries. And the Nazis carried out their first large-scale pogrom of Jews in honor of Luther's birthday.

    Christians constituted a wellspring of support for Hitler. Steve Allen notes that Nazi Germany in the 1930s

    "was the most church-affiliated nation in Europe. The German people were almost entirely Catholic and Lutheran. Despite such factors they launched the Holocaust and World War II."

    Charles Kimball likewise says the Holocaust "would not have happened without the active participation of, sympathetic support of, and relative indifference exhibited by large numbers of Christians."

    Any Christian that can justify the murder of Jews simply because they are Jews and that justifies it from their own theology is no different from any Christian that justifies his persecution, including murder and rape of Christians that are Mormons.

    Kent justifies his persecution of Mormon on the same groundeds that Hitler justified his persecution andmurder of Jews. If Kent will show where his action on this page and elesehere pages are different in motive, character, and con tent from Hitler’s crusade against innocent Jews, then we will judge whether ronny said anything improper and see who needs to apologize to who.

    What does Kent sy in his defence? Nothning. Instead he does what he belittles others for doing in that he assumed the identiry of the persecuted.

    “I am the victim here.” That’s what Kent wroted. Kent is the victim.

    Judge what Kent has said about Mormons on this pages.

    <<<<<>>>>>>>>

    Kent accuses Ronny of being

    ‘cliouds by ‘by the prism of Mormonism.’

    ‘and compare me to Hitler all you want’

    “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor’

    ‘that no reasonable or rational person will believe what you are saying about me’

    “I will not answer anything you say ever again.’

    Hitler worked hard to paint pictures of Jews as inhuman, untermenschen, lesser than proper human beinghs. He was successful and when the German people adopted Hittlers view of Jews it was easy for Hitler and his nazis to herd them ill treat them [persecute them and kill them.

    What is Kent and hi supporters doing when they ;pain ;pictures of Mormins but what Hittler did. Kent and his people paint Mormins as less than Christians so that when their version of Mormon are accepted then Christians can treat Mormons any way they want like Hittler did.

    This is what Hittler said about Jews:

    “The struggle for world domination will be fought entirely between us, between Germans and Jews. All else is facade and illusion. Behind England stands Israel, and behind France, and behind the United States. Even when we have driven the Jew out of Germany, he remains our world enemy. – Rauschning,Hitler Speaks,p. 234

    That’s what Kent says about Mormon that they are enemies of Christians and must be driven out. Yes he does not uses the exactwords but his meaning is clear. Mormons are the enemy and must be sent to hell. Even their believing in Jesus will not save them. Kent has spoken.

    I am freeing man from the restraints of an intelligence that has taken charge, from the dirty and degrading self-mortification of a false vision called conscience and morality, and from the demands of a freedom and independence which only a very few can bear.” – Rauschning, Hitler Speaks, p. 222

    Kent is freeing Christianity from Mormonists because they are deghraged, dirty, and have false visions from false prophets like Hittler said the Jesus are the same.

    “The Ten Commandments have lost their validity. Conscience is a Jewish invention, it is a blemish like circumcision.” – Rauschning, Hitler Speaks, p. 220

    Kent says that only Mormons musty tell the truth and speak right of their neighbor, but Christians can tell all the lies they can invent about Momronists. Do as I say not as I do.

    “The internal expurgation of the Jewish spirit is not possible in any platonic way. For the Jewish spirit as the product of the Jewish person. Unless we expel the Jewish people. Unless we expel the Jewish people soon, they will have judaized our people within a very short time.” – Jackel, Hitler's Worldview, p. 52; from a speech at Nuremberg, January 13, 1923

    Kent says the Mormonists must go. He does not care how. Once he and his cronians have dechristianized the Mormonists there is nothing that any Christian will ever defend Mormonists even when they are innosent. That’s what Hittler did to the Jews. They wre guilty because they were Jews and Hittler was doing ‘the Lord s work by killing them.” Watch out Momroniosts here we come.

    “Those who see in National Socialism nothing more than a political movement know scarcely anything of it. It is more even than religion.” –Hitler Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, trans., (Oxford, 1953),

    Hitler’s Table-Talk, p. 38-39

    Kent says Mormoists are not Christines like Jews were not human. That is how rational and reasonable people with minds to think see Kent’s tarades against Mormons. They cannot be understood any other way.

    Hitler said he is doing the Lords work. Hitler says he is a Christian. Hitler says Cvhristioanity is Jewishj invention like bolshevickism and that both are evil. Hiottle is unstable.

    What about Kent? He says that if you have faith in Jesus you are saved. Then he says that what is gods rul for the entire world does not work if a Christians with faith in Jesus is a Mormonuist. That is doublespeak and contrairy to the techer of the bibel.

    If faith in Jesus saves a man then that man with faith in Jesus is saved if he be ten times a Mormin. Kent cannot hev it both ways at once. If a Mormin believes in Jesus then he is saved lock stick and barral.

    Early this year Ronny wrote aboyut faith and salvation:

    <<<<<<<>>>>>>>

    Kent iggnored that because? We hev to guess why because Kent does not say why. He complitely iggnores it as if it was not arote. Here is Ronny and Kent saying the same thing, but Kent slides around it and goes on to slam Ronny for otheer things. Why?

    Some of sayings of Kent about Mormonists on this thread:

     It really seems like Mormons make this stuff up as they go.

     I have noticed a response from Mormons when I have questioned and been critical of what their church teaches that they often respond that I am attacking them personally when in fact I have never said anything personal about anyone, here or anywhere else, at all.

     The gospel is all about what Jesus did to save us, sinners who can never save ourselves. (Momrins do not believe they can save themselves. To suggest they di is to bear false witnesses)

     It doesn’t say this because Smith has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone’s eternal destiny. Besides, I am sure he isn’t really thinking about anyone else’s savaltion as he is likely too busy reaping all the falsehood he sowed in his lifetime. (That shows the lie of “in fact I have never said anything personal about anyone, here or anywhere else, at all.” Really!)

     Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Does this apply to liars that believe they are telling truthfully?)

     Brian or other Mormons, doesn’t it seem like something is missing from your testimonies if the focus is about Smith, your church, or the Book of Mormon and the focus isn’t on Jesus Himself? (The focus is on Jesus centrelly and also on those good things done by the Jesus to bless th elives of Christians. What’s wrong with that? Do youi intend to find fault?)

     I have asked Mormon missonaries what their testimony is and they usually say the about things about Smith, the BOM, and the church and they say they asked God if it is true and they got the feeling from the Holy Spirit in their hearts that it is so but I haven’t had one say it is about Jesus and what He did on the cross. (Don’t stop asking that question. I have heard more LdeSS testimonie that you will hear in your livetiome and all of them acklnowldge god and Jesus at they heart of their faith. Do you find fault with that?)

     One of the most dangerous Mormon doctrines is that even most unbelievers will go to a lower kingdom of glory called the telestial kingdom but the Bible says that they shall not see life, the wrath of God abides on him, they are condemned, and they have their part in the lake of fire. Doesn’t sound like any kind of glorious future better than anything on earth does it? (Nothing will satisfy you Kent becauise you are antimormoin. Anything a Mormin says or doesn’t say will displease you and set you off against Mormions. Remember how Hittler tyreated Jews.)

     the Bible teaches that there are only two options, eternal life with Heavenly Father or having their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone. (Does it? Reed Santa Pablo on the resurrection and see his glories and heavens)

     Brian’s news (not good news) to the dying unbeliever is that the dying person will probably get to live in spirit prison for a period after he or she dies and then get to live in the telestial kingdom but be eternally seperated from God. (Wrong)

     However, the Bible says that as an unbeliever he or she is condemned, he or she shall not see life, the wrath of God abides on him or her, and he or she has his or her part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone. (Wrong and measn)

     So no glory for him or her in some non existant telestial kingdom, just torment for eternity (wrong and meaner)

     since Joseph Smith used a seer stone to translate part of the Book of Mormon, he was indulging in sorcery (Urrim and thummim? God is a sorcerer that taught sorcery to Isrealits priests?)

     MAY 7 2012 “I have given all of the information that I needed to pass on, so for now, I won’t be commenting here further.”

     Kent on May 8, 2012 at 4:42 pm I have to try to get an answer that I asked here on this thread that, so far, no one has answered. (Didn’t last long.)

     Kent on May 9, 2012 at 5:26 am I just have to make, for now, just one more comment and then I really have to take a break from this as this is getting weary. (watch the date)

     Kent on May 28, 2012 at 5:00 am Below is the contrast between the Mormon gospel and the true gospel of the Bible and yes they are different. (Congratulations. Buit you do not say what the Buible says in any deopth. That couod be because you donot know what the Biblel says. Think about it. Did Jesus tell believers to obey or not?)

     Mormons consider that in the following list of sins in Revelation 21 we all fit at least some of them to varying degrees, (proof? Or is it just your opinion>? Isn’t God the judge of who is and who is not a suinner?)_

     the Mormon Church’s stance is that “the Bible is the word of God as far as it has been translated correctly,” so your church’s official stance is that, in effect, we can’t trust what it says. (That is an outright lie. Please give instances of where LDS say the Bibel isnnot correct.)

    Ronny answered this with a sensibel questions but Kent refused to answer the hot topic:

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Ronnie Bray on May 31, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    Kent – this is just for you.

    It is possible to live forever outside the presence of God, so that everlasting life is not synonymous with salvation.

    The statement that the LDS Church says that the Bible cannot be trusted is a complete nonsense. if you know of any case examples where Mormons do not accept what the Bible says, and if you cann illuminate your false statement, or at least try to do so by presenting one or ten of these instances then we shall have some meat on the bonme and we can sinkl our teeth into it. Otherwise, the statement is a nonsense.

    It is as if you are saying that your Christian cult believes the Bible to be the word of God even when it is not translated correctly.

    For example, when steel is mentioned in the Old Testament. Is ‘STEEL’ an incorrect translation or not? If it is a wrong translation, are you forced by your pastor to believe it is true even though you know, or should know, that it is incorrect?

    Can you answer directly without wriggling? :)

    <<<<<<<<<<<<)

     Mormons often talk about repentance but believing that they can become gods is being disobedient, unrepentant, as they are not giving God His just due that He is God and we never will be (Mormins believe what God in the Bible says about being joint hairs with Christ of everything the father has and sharing in Christ’s exalted glory. You must not belive the Bible but Mormins do. Don’t condemn thenm for their greater faith.)

     Jesus Christ. After all, through Him the worlds, not just the earth, were created (Which wrolds are these? Name a few)

     But, yes, we do know the answer as to what existed before God created everything in the beginning at Genesis and that is nothing existed, no planets for God to have been a man on first, no heaven for spirit children to exist in, the bible tells us this. (The Bibel says nothing of the kind. Priets invented this. )

     I have met were Mormons who were great at hiding things from their families and their church. One guy in particular stands out, he is about four years older than me and some of the vile stuff I learned I learned from him and he was always hiding things from his family. One thing that stands out is when his family would be fasting, I think they did it once a month so that they could give the money they would have spent on food for the day to the church and/or to charity, he would hide food at my house. (How very very very very greatly wicked of him. Is that the best you got? Pathetic kent. And you blame all Mormins fopr that? That’s what Hittler did. He found a Jewish boy criminal and held him up and said they are ALL like this piece of filth! )

     He would sneak over to my house and one time in particular I remember him taking some roast beef out of our refrigerator and taking a big bite out it with a comment, with a big grin on his face, of, “ah, roast beef!”

     He was about fourteen at that time but I don’t know if he went on a mission or not as he moved out of our neighborhood before he was old enough to go on one but if he did, and if he went to the temple, I think HE PROBABLY LIED (there YOU GO AGAIN,. Judging as if you are God almioghty) to get his recommend and, IF HE DID (YOU DON’T KNOW IF HE DUID, BUT LIKE Hittler’s GUILT BY ASSOCIATION AND GUESS IS ENOUGHH!) , PROBABLY THERE YOU GO AGAIN!) his bishops didn’t catch on and IF NOT WHY NOT? As aren’t they supposed to be able to read what is in someone’s heart? (Do you know what you sound like? A fharissee. Liosten kent this jkind was 14 years old and now you damn ghim to hell every step of his young life even when you donjot know. Now tell me that your attitude to thuis poor lad isn’;t just like that of Hittler and his nazis when discussing Jews and theior characters. Tell me about the commanding not to lie about your Mormin neighbor.)

     The reason I think he lied to get into the temple is b (You THINK! You are making iot up again. That is very very very Hittlerite. You should be ashamed to call yourself a Christian and sit in judgement on a poor young lad that liked roast beef better than fasting. I don’;t think you a re probably not a Christians by talking like this and making accusiongs when you deep down do not klow, buit you condemn hinm to hjell. Liars will be thrusted down to hell so if he wented there you can meet him since you lie abouit him. Shame on you that never attacked anyone anywhere ever. You lie)

     1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good (youi didn’t test the truth about you supposings and probablies abou the roast beef boy. You preach but do not live. Shanme_ )

     the blood of the Mormon Jesus doesn’t save anyone as he doesn’t exist as the true Jesus of the Bible (He does exist. Hje is the Jesus of the Bibel. I have read it and now what it says but I don’;t see your short version of Jesus in there. You quote three or four scripts and think you have said everything. Wrong!)

     one God in three persons, The Father, The Son, and The Holy spirit (Not in the Bible. You mean the creedals)

     using the Bible as your guide (I have not seen any better Bible teacher than Ronny and I have red everthing on this thred. You cant answer his argiments about the Bible because you don’t know it as he knows it and it shows. He leaves you in his dust.)

     In particular, study your own church history, as shown through your own church sources to see if it measures up. (been there done that and it does. Your turn now.)

     Mormons are using a logical fallacy known as ad honinem (sp), ‘to the man’, so they are discrediting what I am saying because it is me saying it, but they are not considering the argument that is being presented on its merits. (When Ronny used the Bible in many good posts on point and non mormin Christians to answer about the Bible you moan its too long for a poor like me to read it all but carry on as if you have. I hate top say this Kent but that is nopt honesty)

     ome Mormons react with anger towards me and they say I am was attacking them personally by being critical of the Mormon Church when in fact I have never say anything personal about them ever, (We have seen that this is a lie direct yes?)

     Contrast the Mormon way to eternal life, which starts at the temple (It does not! That is untrue It starts with faith in Jesus Christ. Do you know what that means? Articl Faith number four.).

     Jesus having a plan for you in this life is crazy (The fharisees thought Jesus was crazy druink or possessed, and you agree with them. Nice)

     You guys are stupid. (Message received and understood. But you don’t attack anyobne?)

     what I find odd is that Mormon missionaries are called elders but they are younger than I am. Are they considered above me spiritually by the Mormon Church , my elders so to speak? When I ask them why they are called elders they never give me an answer just that it is a title they have. (‘Elder’ is an office in the rpiesthood. Theses young men are minsiters of the Gsoep of Jesus Christ called, ordained and sent out without nay special training for their missionary work. It has nothing to do with age. An elder can be 19 or 99 to 199 if hye can last it out. Try to fiond something more substancy to pickn on unless you weant to be thought of as a hostile critic fault fuinder contentioner. YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT Ronnie and Brian but stick your neck out of the hole far enough and shoot your mouth off so foten with imaguinationary thinjgs that you invote peeples to believe you are just a mean and angry person that would like to be a Christin like Jesus but still have some way to travil))

    I don’t reely care wether you answer this or not though I expect you will have some thinking and prayin for to do to straighten yournself out until you show Christ jkesus and his love in your finger ends and voice. Im just trying to show you what you look like. Xcall me a looking glass the kind God want you to look in as you troll thropughh life.

    Ronnys Bible posts

    Ronnie Bray on June 17, 2012 at 11:34 am

    Re-post:

    Posted by: Ronnie on February 3, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    Non-LDS Christians should get used to the plain fact that latter-day saints believe in Jesus every whit as strongly as they do. The Jesus of the Holy Bible is one that was in the pre-existence with God his Father, and who came to earth through Mary in the incarnation; that he was crucified, that he died, that he was resurrected, and that he ascended to heaven from where he will come top judge the quick and the dead.

    He, Jesus the Christ, is the Only Begotten of the Father; his Firstborn, and our Saviour, Lord, redeemer, and King, as well as our Advocate and Mediator with the Father in our behalf.

    By the redemption and perfect atonement he wrought by the shedding of his innocent blood he enables those that have faith in him as God’s Son and Saviour to be righteous, cleansed from their sins and its effects through the principle of repentance, and enable the sons and daughters of God to stand clean again in his presence.

    All else is commentary, concerning which, no body of Christians en bloc have been able and are still not able to come to general across-the-board agreement.

    I acknowledge that you consider yourself saved in God’s kingdom by your faith, and that you will concede that Latter-day Saints [Mormons] are just as saved as you are and for the same reasons, namely because of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and their willingness to serve and obey him.

    <<<<<<<<<<

    Ronnie Bray on June 14, 2012 at 11:40 am

    .

    Kent:

    .

    You can not be serious! You write: ” … if your conclusion is true based on what you wrote, and I have no idea as I just don’t have the time to analyze every line and cross reference that you wrote, a virtual novel again, to see if what you are saying is consistent … ”

    Then you go on as if you had studied every line or what I write and found fault with something you have not read. That is simply intolerable.

    If you had had the courtesy, or even the curiosity, to read what I wrote you would have found that I used only the Holy Bible and comments made about the biblical Scriptures made by reputable NON-LDS Christian scholars and divines. That you refuse to read what they have to say is disastrous for your claim to be a follower of the Holy Bible.

    That you do not have the mental rigour to actually take time to read what your fellow [presumably] Christians have written that show them to be in agreement with what the Bible says and what Mormons actually believe suggests that you are not a serious Christian but at best a part-time semi-believer that is not prepared to give a ready answer when you raise objections and people take time and effort to make attempt to answer your questions.

    You leave us with no alternative that to define you as a simple minded Anti-Mormon whose only purpose here is to lay down one or two Scriptures that you apparently do not understand, but that you believe they somehow oppose Mormonism, which they do not.

    You may not intend to be insulting, but nevertheless you are when you suggest that Latter-day Saints believe only what the ‘brethren’ tell them to believe. That is an arrant nonsense.

    For my own part, I have been a student of the Holy Bible for more than sixty years. I am an academic Bible scholar, proficient in the biblical languages and have an earned degree from a British university’s department of theology and religious studies. I read the Bible for myself and have continuously done so since 1950 when at the age of 15 I was converted by the Holy Spirit top the Church of Jesus Christ. I have taught Old and New Testaments in the Seminary programme, the Institute of Religion, and in The University of the Third Age. Your assumption is unfounded.

    You may disagree with me on certain understandings of the Holy Bible, but until you are prepared to roll up your sleeves, open your mind, open your Bible, and find out for yourself what the Bible actually says, in and of itself, and not what such as Walter Martin, Creflo Dollar, and Benny Hinn say about it instead of using your own mind and seeking understanding through the Holy Spirit, then you will never know what is actually IN the word of God, and what it REALLY SAYS, apart from what Matt Slick and jack Chick tell you to believe.

    I will give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest that you do not mean to be insulting and belittling, but you certainly come across that way. Perhaps you would do everyone the favour of thinking before you rush into print?

    If you do not wish to be thought contentious,. then do not be contentious merely for the sake of insisting that you are right and everyone else wrong. Unless you are prepared to stand up like a man and discuss the Bible passages I have quoted together with the commentaries provided by Non-Mormon Bible Scholars and theologians, then you have no right to stand there shaking your fist and denouncing me for what I believe. Take each point as I laid it before you and show me where I am wrong in my understanding of the sacred word. Stope being lazy and begin to tackle it point by point. I am not in any hurry.

    Remember, Kent, this isn’t about you and it isn’t about me, but it IS about what the Bible says and what Christians have long held what it says to mean. If you don’t know what Christians hold the Bible to mean on the points I have set forth for you, then you cannot with any degree of honesty malign me for believing the Bible as I do.

    You cannot tell me that I don’t believe the Bible to be translated correctly unless you can show me verse by verse which ones they are that I claim to be incorrectly translated. If you are going to be any good as an Anti-Mormon then you ought top know your subject much better than you do.

    Please do NOT change the subject. Keep on the point and let us see if we can get anywhere else but list.

    Perhaps you will cease from belittling the Holy Bible by calling references to it ‘a virtual novel,’ because novels are fiction [unless it is an historical novel] and the Bible is not a novel, virtual or otherwise, and no True Christian will claim it to be so.

    The truth is that only atheists and wobbly agnostics take the Bible to be a fairy story. Are you one of them? I didn’t think you were, but claiming the Bible passages and Christian comment on them ‘a virtual novel’ does raise a red flag. If you don’t believe the Bible is true, then what do you think it is?

    Members of The Church Of JESUS CHRIST Of Latter-day Saints believe that it is the word of God.

    What do YOU believe it is other than a novel?

    <<<<<<<<<<

    Ronny is worh reeding.

  226. Gladys,

    It was kind of you to spring to my defence against Kent's accusations, but it wasn't necessary. I am used to dealing with Anti-Mormons that show their hostility in a variety of ways and in differing degrees of silliness.

    Kent is not the worst, nor is he among the worst. I suppose the worst I could say about Kent is that he follows the standard anti-Mormon pattern of not reading responses if they are lengthy and detailed, but, which is much worse, he has assimilated the penchant for distorting what has been said.

    He said I compared him to Hitler. I merely pointed out to him that he employed some of the same kind of propaganda in kind against Mormons that Hitler and Goebbels used against Jews.

    I really can watch my own back, but I do appreciate your Christian kindness. Thank you.

  227. "Contrast the Mormon way to eternal life, which starts at the temple (It does not! That is untrue It starts with faith in Jesus Christ. Do you know what that means? Articl Faith number four.)."

    Mormons, ask yourselves, can you have eternal life if you never even enter the temple, obey its ordinances, and participate in its rituals? I believe if it is about faith in Christ, then the temple is not needed at all.

    Eternal life starts and ends with faith in Chirst and nothing else.

    I believe we can enter the Holy of Holies soley by being sealed by the blood of Jesus freely given to us by what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day.

    The Bible says, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life" if participating in some temple, after Jesus came and gave his atonement for mankind was needed, the Bible would say this is the case.

    I am asking people to read the following passages and to try to at least see why I believe what I believe.

    1 John 5:11-13

    11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    Hebrews 10:19

    19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus

    Regarding the Bible being translated accurately. I was asking if Mormons use the Bible as being the word of God in practice, but it is incomplete with additional words of God such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Coveneants are needed to show the whole picture, why doesn't the Mormon Church officially say this is the case instead of bringing into question that is hasn't been translated accurately? Because by questioning its translation, the Bible inadvertently can lose credibility in people's eyes and it loses authority as the word of God.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  228. "Christian kindness?" How on earth was that Christian kindness, because she agrees with you? Gladys' anti-Christian rant was anything but kind or Christian. She first argues that Ronnie didn't compare Kent to Hitler, then goes on the say its true and compares Kent to Hitler herself, and not with any rational thought or correct spelling I might add. Kent said and did NONE of the things Gladys accused him of, she is just as delusional and insane to compare a guy writing on a blog to a man who murdered millions of people in a quest for world domination. Why do Mormons have to demonize anyone who does not agree with their theology?

    "That’s what Kent says about Mormon that they are enemies of Christians and must be driven out. YES HE DOES NOT USES THE EXACT WORDS BUT HIS MEANING IS CLEAR." (emphasis mine)

    Thank you Gladys for reading Kent's mind and telling us exactly what he was thinking even though he said nothing of the sort. You are brainwashed beyond reason, you showed that from your nonsensical diatribe that was based on conjecture and more false witness against Kent. I'm sure there will be no apologies from either of you, after seeing the pride and arrogance displayed by these so called "Christians."

    I'd also like to add that Hitler was raised Catholic. Christians do not have alter boys. He also threw priests, nuns, and Christians into concentration camps as well as doing testing and experiments on humans based on his evolutionary thinking. As he rose to more power he sought to do away with many churches as they were competition for control. The ones he left alone were the ones who swore allegiance to his Nazi cause. Hitler even rewrote his own version of the Bible to fit his cause, I saw it myself at the Holocaust Museum in DC (reminds me of someone else who rewrote the Bible to suit his own purposes…maybe we should compare Hitler to Joseph Smith??). It's evident he used religion only as a means of control. As you can see on this site, just because one professes to be a Christian, their actions can tell us otherwise. The comparison of Hitler to Kent who seems to be just sharing Jesus on this page shows the level of delusion of the Mormons here.

  229. “That’s what Kent says about Mormon that they are enemies of Christians and must be driven out. YES HE DOES NOT USES THE EXACT WORDS BUT HIS MEANING IS CLEAR.”

    Wow, someone said that? I must have missed that. I am trying to do the exact opposite in that I am trying to bring people back into the flock so I am not trying to drive them out. The Good Shepard (Jesus) would go out of His way bring one lost sheep back into the fold so I am trying to follow His example by using His words to show people the way.

    This whole Kent is acting like Hitler nonsense was started by a false assumption Ronnie made that since I believe that it is by faith alone in Christ that saves us to eternal life and that nothing we can do,. other than believing and trusting completely in who Jesus is and what He did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day, has anything to do with our salvation, that I was saying this gives us a license to sin.

    I have never said that since people are saved, that gives them a license to sin. That is Ronnie saying I am saying that.

    This is what I say about it, I believe that because we are saved by nothing but the blood of Jesus, we have a new heart because we are born again, a change of heart, that give us a desire to live moral lives to please our God so that we do good works because we are saved not to contribute anything to our salvation. But if anyone is living a sinful lifestyle as if they have a license to sin, that can be evidence that this person is not saved and is not a true believer in Christ at all despite their profession of faith. So if Hitler had ever made a profession of faith in Christ, his terrible works are very strong evidence that no, in fact, he never was a believer in Christ at all.

    Again, this is what Ronnie said about me, compare it to the paragraph directly proceeding this that shows what I have been saying. Clearly what Ronnie claims I say is not what I have said at all:

    “YOU say,

    “All you need to be saved is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. After that, you can please yourself what you do. You can lie, kill, be a fornicator, and God does not mind because you are saved and always will be.”

    Well, Kent, I hate to disappoint you, but I have read the Holy Bible and it does not give Christians a licence to ‘continue in sin’ because OSAS . The TRUE Bible says that Christians are to continue to believe and to live their lives in conformity to the will of God, the direction of the apostles and according to God’s moral code.

    Your version must be the one that Adolph Hitler followed when he claimed that by murdering Jews he as doing the work of the Lord. That would explain a lot. The difference between you and Hitler is that Hitler did not pretend to love his victims but you do.”

    By the way, I am a direct descendant of a German Jew who, if he hadn't come to the United States in the 1800s, may very well have been killed by the Nazis and I very likely have distant relatives who were killed by them so, at least indirectly, the brutallity of the Nazis hits home with me.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  230. Regarding the fourteen year old boy who hid food at my house when his family thought he was fasting, I was ten years old, or maybe twelve years old, I don't remember exactly when he did this as he was my neighbor for about two years, but I was observant enough to know that the fresh faced lad who told his parents what they wanted to hear to have the appearance of toeing the line was someone I heard a lot of raunchy stufff I had never been exposed to before. So while I don't know if he ever went to the temple, by observing him away from his Mormon and family environment, I could see how he could have later lied to partcipate just to please his family.

    I did see him in my early 20s and, to me, he hadn't changed a bit as there he was drinking at a party with all of the rest of my friends who liked to party, I also went through a period where I would drink on occassion and, knowing him, although I didn't ask him if he was still involved in his church, I could see how he could have continued to not live up to the standards and still get into the temple as, no, just as none of you can read my heart as to my intensions for posting what I post, your bishops can't truly look into someone's heart to know the truth about that person as only God can truly read someone's heart.

    Ex Mormon Jake who recently posted here alluded that some Mormons he knew in Washington state liked to party and I think it is possible that even some of them could be people who take part in their temple but their bishops, unless they follow them night and day, would not know that they aren't meeting the standard of being temple worthy.

    Please read the following passages as even if you don't agree with what I say, at least, I hope, you can try to see why I believe what I am posting in particular, about what I believe the Bible is saying here about only God knowing what is in our hearts.

    1 Kings 8:39

    39 then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men)

    In closing again:

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  231. One more thing about the young man who used to hide from his family that he wasn't fasting on their fast days, do I know that he ever went to the temple and that if he did, did he lie to get a recommend? No I don't know if he did or not. One thing for sure though is that I was wrong for saying he probably lied to get a temple recommend as, really, I don't know if he really did or not so I apologize for saying he probably did lie.

    But I believe it is possible someone could lie and still get into the temple and I hope people take the time to see why I believe that your Mormon bishops cannot read what is in someone else's heart.

    Again, read the following passage from the Bible and try to see why I believe they can't read your hearts.

    1 Kings 8:39

    39 then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men)

    However some people did lie about me and some of the stuff they attribute to me I have never said.

    For example Gladys stated, "You guys are stupid. (Message received and understood. But you don’t attack anyobne?)"

    I have never said anyone is stupid so if I didn't say anyone is stupid, then I didn't say anyone is stupid so Gladys needs to apologize to me for breaking one of the ten commandments by bearing false witness against me.

    I also never said I want to drive Mormons out and that they are enemies of Christians as someone said here, “That’s what Kent says about Mormon that they are enemies of Christians and must be driven out. YES HE DOES NOT USES THE EXACT WORDS BUT HIS MEANING IS CLEAR.”

    So if I didn't say that I want to drive Mormons out and that they are enemies of Christians, then this isn't my meaning at all. So again, I am not sure who said this particular statement, but whoever did say this is also breaking one of the ten commandments by bearing false witness against me. My intentions are to bring people back into the flock not drive them out.

    Again, the whole Kent is acting like Hilter nonsense start with Ronnie saying that because I believe that because people are saved by faith in Jesus only and what He did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day, it gives them a license to sin. I have also never said this.

    Once more, I believe that if someone is saved by the blood of Jesus, that His blood gives them the desire to live a moral live that they are changed by His blood and that they no longer desire to live sinful lifestyles so, no, they don't have a license to sin. But living a moral life and doing good works follows from their faith but doesn't contribute to their salvation as salvation is by nothing but the blood of Jesus.

    On the other hand, if people are living sinful lifestyles as if they do have a license to sin, that is evidence that they are not saved and are not believers in Jesus and that they often don't care if they sin or not as they want to do what they want to do no matter what.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  232. Kent-It was Gladys that said it. She also said "Kent says Mormoists are not Christines like Jews were not human" and many other irrational statements. She also said "Kent says the Mormonists must go. He does not care how." Kent said no such thing, these were made up in the mind of Gladys. These statements are so ridiculous they probably shouldn't even be dignified with a response. Goes to show that Mormons cannot take any kind of scrutiny of their beliefs, they just turn to personal ad hominem attacks on the person questioning their doctrine.

  233. Destroyer of Kolob, I guess you aren't going to make any friends around here with that handle, which to me is neither here nor there as Kolob doesn't exist but to others who may think it does exist, they probably won't like it.

    You are right, there is no way to respond to irrational unfounded attacks on my person because I have never said any of those things and to say I did say them, and no one can say I meant any such things unless I actually said those things, but in no way, shape, or form do I believe that Mormons must go, etc. In fact, as I said, I want Mormons to come back to the flock.

    D.O.K. or any Christians that visit this board and even any Mormons as well who are reasonable, can't you see that some apologies are in order to me?

    Mormons say they strive to keep the commandments of God but bearing false witness against me is clearly breaking the commandment of "you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  234. I said, "However some people did lie about me and some of the stuff they attribute to me I have never said.

    For example Gladys stated, “You guys are stupid. (Message received and understood. But you don’t attack anyobne?)

    I have never said anyone is stupid so if I didn’t say anyone is stupid, then I didn't say anyone is stupid so Gladys needs to apologize to me for breaking one of the ten commandments by bearing false witness against me."

    But even if Gladys didn't believe she was lying because she thinks that, for example, I think Mormons are stupid, it still isn't true as I have never said that Mormons are stupid.

    This is what I think about Mormons, that they are honest, caring, and sincere people and I do not think they are stupid but I also don't believe in the teachings of the Mormon Church. Again, I can be critical of what the Mormon Church teaches and still not attack people as individuals.

    I still find it curious sometimes that Mormons react to scrutiny of what their church teaches as attacks on them personally. As I have stated before, for example, if an atheist says that what I believe isn't true, that there really isn't a God at all, I don't take it as an attack on my person but just that this person is not correct and just becausae I don't agree with his or her assesement that there is no God, doesn't mean I think this person is stupid.

    The same with Mormons, just because I don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, I don't believe the Book of Mormon, I don't believe the Mormon Church is true, etc, doesn't mean that anyone who differs with my belief is stupid.

    Bottome line is:

    1. I never said that Mormons are stupid so anyone who says I said this or even that I mean this, their statement is not correct.

    2. I have never said that Mormons are enemies of Christians and that I want to drive them out so anyone who even says that this is what I mean, their statement is not correct.

    3. Finally, I have never said that because Christians are saved by their fatih in Christ alone and that nothing they do can contribute to their salavation at all, that it gives anyone a license to sin. and if Ronnie had not said I said this or that I even meant this, none of this comparing me to Hitler would have even come up.

    D.O.K, I do think though that the tirades towards me show that feelings can't be trusted to guide us towards the things of God as God doesn't want us to say things about people that aren't true especially based on feelings such as anger.

    Ironic that Mormon missionaries will say that if we have a burning in our bosom, a feeling so speak, after reading the Book of Mormon, that means God telling us it is true, but feelings should not be the barometer for truth as they are based on emotions and emotions are subjective not objective.

    Ironic, that I did ask God if the Book of Mormon was true and I didn't get any kind of feeling at all just the thoughts that the stories in it didn't seem real, that the people in it didn't seem real, and that the places and events it talks about didn't seem to exist or to have taken place. I do believe that this was the Holy Spirit telling me the BOM isn't true and since my thoughts were not based on a feeling, that what I was think is true.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  235. Getting off of the Kent is Hitler stuff or is acting like Hitler, I have a hypothetical question for the Mormons who come here, how would you respond if someone said that all of your statements of faith were disgusting to and hated by God, that all of the believers of the Mormon faith were dishonest, that the Mormon Church is wrong and if he or she said God told him or her that you should not join the Mormon Church?

    I, for the moment, am not making a statement on the Mormon Church but just presenting these questions, how would you respond to a person who said the things presented above?

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  236. Kent: That happens with tedious regularity. Read all above and see it for yourself.

  237. But Ronnie, and I am not talking specifically about anything that has been posted here, but would you believe that the person who said that the statements of faith of the Mormon Church were disgusting to and hated by God, that all of the believers of the Mormon faith were dishonest, that the Mormon Church is wrong, and that God told him or her not to join the Mormon Church that this person was saying that there is at least some truth found in the Mormon Church?

    Well sir your Mormon church was founded on the premise that all of our churches are wrong, that our creeds (statements of our faith) are an abomination in the sight of God (that God is digusted by them and he hates them), that all of our professors of our faith are crooked (dishonest), and by the fact that Joseph Smith said that the Lord told him to not join any of our churches.

    From Joseph Smith’s first vision:

    “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.

    I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

    So you don't see the contradiction between what Joseph Smith said about all of our churches and how the Mormon Church now says that our churches have some truth in them but not the complete truth?

    Because Smith saying our churches are wrong, our creeds are an abomination in the sight of God, and Smith saying all of our professors of our faith are crooked does not mean there he was saying there is any truth in our churches.

    Ronnie, you don't see any contradiction between what Smith said the Lord told him in his first vision and what your church now teaches that there is at least some truth found in our churches?

    I find it ironic that although we have never said Mormons are dishonest, I do believe they are well meaning but they are deceived, that Smith flat out said that all of us, professors of our faith in all our churches, are crooked, which is defined in Webster's dictionary as being dishonest, that we are made out to be the bad guys by some Mormons for questioning the teachings of the Mormon Church.

    Ronnie, you may think you can read what is my heart as to my motivation for spending a fair amount of my spare time coming to blogs such as this one but you can't know why I do what I do as no one can read the hearts of others only God can do so.

    Well I will flat out tell you why I come to blogs like this, and why I talk to Mormons in person when I get the chance. I do so because I want Mormons to objectively question what their church teaches as, quite frankly, I want people to leave the Mormon faith because I believe with all my heart that it leads people down the wrong path, away from God, not to God.

    By the way, I believe that you, Ronnie, are well meaning and that your motivations for defending what you believe to be the truth have good intentions but I do believe you are deceived.

    By the way, do I believe Josesph Smith was dishonest in his statements of faith and what he taught? I don't really know as, like I said, no one can read another's heart, but I do believe if he was honest and sincere, that he too was deceived.

    1 Kings 8:39

    39 then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men),

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  238. .

    Kent Posted this on July 7, 2012 at 6:20 am

    “Contrast the Mormon way to eternal life, which starts at the temple … "

    Ronnie responded: "It does not! That is untrue [The Mormon way to eternal life] starts with faith in Jesus Christ.

    Kent then writes: "Mormons, ask yourselves, can you have eternal life if you never even enter the temple, obey its ordinances, and participate in its rituals? I believe if it is about faith in Christ, then the temple is not needed at all. Eternal life starts and ends with faith in Chirst and nothing else."

    I know you have pledged not to respond to my responses anymore, and that is your prerogative.

    However, the imposition of your errant interpretation on what Mormons believe requires that I respond to it so that you can, hopefully, see where you are attempting to move Mormons in a direction they do not necessarily move themselves. You complain like a child when someone seems to go against your understanding, and then you ask Latter-day Saints how they would like it if someone did the same to them. LOL!

    You say that for Mormon Christians eternal life starts at the temple. You are wrong.

    For Latter-day Saints, as for most other Christians, Calvinists excluded, to way to eternal life starts with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    You say that for you, eternal life starts and ends with faith in Jesus. You are welcome to that minimalist view.

    However, if you are right in your view, then Mormons by dint of their overwhelming faith in Jesus Christ have eternal life. Your suggestion, although not articulated, but simply by vague inference, is that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ does not lead to eternal life if anything besides faith is included.

    The dogma of sola fide is a novelty to the Christian world in which Eastern Orthodox Christians, Roman Christians, and Protestant Christians that stand in or have devolved from traditional historical forms of Christianity require more for eternal life than faith alone – sola fide.

    Orthodox, Roman, and Protestant forms of Christianity as a majority have as essential parts of christian life certain ordinances and observations, some of which are regarded as essential sacraments, and some that are required as demonstrations to their respective churches and church minister as signs or tokens of their faith that are rooted and grounded in the Holy Bible.

    Thus, we see that sola fideists are ion a miniscule minority among the vast concourse of Christians that claim to be orthodox and/or biblical in belief and practice.

    Some Christians aver that without baptism there is no salvation. No amount of faith in Jesus, they say, will secure eternal life for the unbaptised.

    Some other Christians say with equal fervour that baptism is a matter of individual choice and that when Jesus said men must be born again of the water he was not speaking for God, but offering an opinion that is not binding on Christians and can be disregarded with impunity and without penalty.

    Yet other Christians say that no faith and no activity is required because Jesus will save all those that simply call upon his name whether they actually believe he is who he said he was or not.

    Mormons stand in the Bible tradition set out and laid down by Jesus in John chapter 3, and Matthew chapter 7.

    Latter-day Saints consider that there is neither profit nor advantage in doubting any of the things that Jesus said the faithful that believe in him should or must do, because obedience to Jesus and to his Father are essential characteristics of Christians that will be granted eternal life in the kingdom of God.

    Is it your advice to Mormons that they are to disregard Jesus and God and listen to Kent?

    Naturally, having given your word that you will not respond to me, I do not expect you to answer this and try to pull back from the wrong things you attempt to foist on Latter-day Saints.

    We know in whom we believe, and it is not you nor your faithless version of Christianity. We will continue to trust God.

    You can continue trust Benny Hinn, Walter 'Liar' Martin, Jack Chick, and all other minimalists that ignore most of what Jesus said and cling only to a line here and half a line there and still insist they have the full version of New Testament Christianity.

    Latter-day Saints choose not to ignore vast tracts of biblical scripture, nor do they winnow out essential doctrines of Christian faith and life as explained by apostles sent by God and ordained by Jesus.

    I continue to pray that you will read more of your Bible than you appear to be familiar with and find answers to some of the most vexed and vexing questi0ons that have occupied Christians that seek to change Christianity over almost 2000 years.

    I repeat: The first essential of Mormonism is 'Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Those that follow Christ will eventually take care of all other matters that Christ and his Father-God have detailed as essential to the Christian's life of faith in Christ.

  239. WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    FACT: MORMONS BELIEVE IN THE SON

    ERGO: MORMONS HAVE ETERNAL LIFE

    He drew a circle that shut men out

    Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout!

    But God and me have the will to win.

    We draw a circle that shuts IN!

    <

  240. "Smith flat out said that all of us, professors of our faith in all our churches, are crooked"

    Neither Jesus nor Joseph said that.

    The choice of words used by Jesus were not novel, for they had been used before and are biblical. See, Isaiah 29:13; Ezekiel 33:31 (30–33); Luke 6:46.

    Remember that Smith was quoting what Jesus told him. Don't kill the messenger [Too late: Smith was murdered by Christians in 844!]

    He sealed his testimony with his blood. Frauds do not die for their bogus schemes – they flee!

  241. Protestantism was founded on the belief by some reformers that the Roman church was wrong and corrupt. Some' Christians' insist that Roman Catholics are not Christians! Why is it wrong for Jesus to say something but OK for protestants to say the same thing?

    Can we have a little straight talking?

  242. .

    The Bible never says sola fide, or faith alone, directly except to deny it in James 2:24.

    For example, Paul writes:

    For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8)

    This is definitely sola fide, faith completely apart from works.

    However, this is not Paul's only word on the matter. Works are obviously important to him because in the same letter he warns the Christians of Ephesus that immoral, unclean, and covetous people have on inheritance in God's kingdom (5:5). We cannot say works don't matter.

    It's common for 'sola fide' Reformed Protestants [RPs] to say, "It's faith plus nothing. You can't add anything to faith."

    In the past tense, if you're talking about how we entered Christ, then it's true that it's faith plus nothing. However, once that happens you can add to faith. In fact, it's a direct Biblical command!

    Add to your faith virtue … 2 Pet. 1:5,

    Virtue's not the only thing we're supposed to add to faith. We're also supposed to add:

    knowledge,

    self-control,

    perseverance,

    godliness,

    brotherly kindness, and

    love.

    If we don't we won't go to heaven. That's what 2 Peter 1:5-11 says, anyway.

    Why didn't Augustine teach sola fide?

    Two doctrines that Augustine believed in that are normally counted as contrary to sola fide are Purgatory and penance. RPs reject both Purgatory and penance on the grounds that they add something that needs to be done to procure salvation.

    Purgatory and penance both add suffering for the expiation of sins. Protestants reject this suffering saying that Christ's work is finished and complete. Catholics say that suffering is what we are called to do as Christians,

    Now if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. (Romans 8:17)

    For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him. (Philippians 1:29)

    Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)

    I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus. (Rev 1:9)

    Now, my point is not to belabour suffering or the easy believism that 'sola fide' has engendered in the 20th and 21st centuries. But, it is clear that St Augustine did not teach 'sola fide.'

    Now if Augustine had taught 'sola fide,' you would think that the first man to popularize the doctrine would cite Augustine as an authority. Is that what Martin Luther did? Most definitely not. Regarding St. Augustine, Luther wrote:

    " Augustine has sometimes erred and is not to be trusted. Although good and holy, he was yet lacking in the true faith, as well as the other fathers…But when the door was opended for me in Paul, so that I understood what justification by faith is, it was all over with Augustine." (Luther's Works 54, 49)

    It was Augustine's view that the law, when the Holy Spirit assists, the works of the law do justify…I reply by saying "No". (Luther's Works 54, 10)

    Well, why would Luther say Augustine erred by not teaching sola fide? Every RP knows that St. Augustine was NOT a Protestant, right?

    Let's take a look at what St. Augustine has written:

    "When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance" (St. Augustine, Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16).

    In the above quote, Augustine writes that sins are forgiven in baptism, prayer, and in penance. Does that sound like sola fide?

    If sola fide was sound doctrine, then not only Augustine but all other Church Fathers would have taught it. However, it is abundant;y clear that they did not.

    Does that mean that they were wrong and that their theologies were corrupt?

  243. Some unthinking persons, however, with regard to the apostle's statement:

    "We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law,"

    have thought him to mean that faith suffices to a man, even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works.

    Impossible it is that such a character should be deemed "a vessel of election" by the apostle, who, after declaring that "in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision," adds at once, "but faith which worketh by love."

    It is such faith which severs God's faithful from unclean demons,–for even these "believe and tremble," as the Apostle James says; but they do not do well. Therefore they possess not the faith by which the just man lives,–the faith which works by love in such wise, that God recompenses it according to its works with eternal life. But inasmuch as we have even our good works from God, from whom likewise comes our faith and our love, therefore the selfsame great teacher of the Gentiles has designated "eternal life" itself as His gracious "gift."

    And hence there arises no small question, which must be solved by the Lord's gift. If eternal life is rendered to good works, as the Scripture most openly declares:

    "Then He shall reward every man according to his works:"

    how can eternal life be a matter of grace, seeing that grace is not rendered to works, but is given gratuitously, as the apostle himself tells us:

    "To him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt;"

    and again:

    "There is a remnant saved according to the election of grace;" with these words immediately subjoined:

    "And if of grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace"?

    How, then, is eternal life by grace, when it is received from works? Does the apostle perchance not say that eternal life is a grace? Nay, he has so called it, with a clearness which none can possibly gainsay.

    It requires no acute intellect, but only an attentive reader, to discover this. For after saying, "The wages of sin is death," he at once added, "The grace of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

    This question, then, seems to me to be by no means capable of solution, unless we understand that even those good works of ours, which are recompensed with eternal life, belong to the grace of God, because of what is said by the Lord Jesus:

    "Without me ye can do nothing."

    And the apostle himself, after saying,

    "By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast;" saw, of course, the possibility that men would think from this statement that good works are NOT necessary to those who believe, but that faith alone suffices for them; and again, the possibility of men's boasting of their good works, as if they were of themselves capable of performing them.

    To meet these opinions on both sides, he immediately added,

    "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

    What, then, is the purport of his saying, "Not of works, lest any man should boast," while commending the grace of God? And then why does he afterwards, when giving a reason for using such words, say,

    "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works"?

    Why, therefore, does it run, "Not of works, lest any man should boast"? Now, hear and understand. "Not of works" is spoken of the works which you suppose have their origin in yourself alone; but you have to think of works for which God has moulded (that is, has formed and created) you. For of these he says,

    "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works."

    Now he does not here speak of that creation which made us human beings, but of that in reference to which one said who was already in full manhood,

    "Create in me a clean heart, O God;" concerning which also the apostle says,

    "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God."

    We are framed, therefore, that is, formed and created, "in the good works which" we have not ourselves prepared, but "God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

    sola fide is an incomplete corruption of the Christian Gospel of the NT.

  244. .

    In the very long passage from "A Treatise on Grace and Free Will", Augustine clearly says that God rewards our faith and works with eternal life. The evidence is mounting on why Luther thought Augustine erred in teaching a justification that was not by faith alone. There is more:

    Now, if the wicked man were to be saved by fire on account of his faith only, and if this is the way the statement of the blessed Paul should be understood–"But he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire"–then faith without works would be sufficient to salvation. But then what the apostle James said would be false. And also false would be another statement of the same Paul himself: "Do not err," he says; "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the unmanly, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God." (Enchiridion, Chapter XVIII, paragraph 3).

    Augustine wrote that if faith without works is sufficient for salvation, then the apostle James would be in error–and so would Paul. Augustine rejects the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation.

    Alistair McGrath, the eminent Reformed Protestant theologian writes about justification:

    "A fundamental discontinuity was introduced into western theological tradition where none had ever existed, or ever been contemplated before: The Reformation understanding of the nature of justification–as opposed to its mode–must be regarded as a genuine theological novum [novelty]". (Iustitia Dei)

    McGrath does not specifically mention Augustine, but it is easy to deduce that if Augustine taught the Protestant doctrine of justification, then sola fide would NOT be a "genuine theological novum." Augustine did NOT teach sola fide.

  245. Joseph Smith did flee! He took off, it was Emma who convinced Smith to return and face the music, landing him in Carthage. Then while in jail, Smith had a gun and fired it 6 times, he did not die willingly for any cause. Do not try to rewrite history.

  246. Not to mention when he fled all the other times he was arrested too. He fled to Ohio, Missouri, Illinois…he never intended on dying for Mormonism on fled every chance he got! You might want to use something other than "Frauds do not die for their bogus schemes – they flee!" as your argument.

  247. Ronnie quoted me, “Smith flat out said that all of us, professors of our faith in all our churches, are crooked”

    Then Ronnie responded, "Neither Jesus nor Joseph said that."

    Ronnie, "No Jesus never said what Joseph Smith claimed He said about all of the churches because Jesus never appeared to Smith at all but I stand corrected, Smith claimed Jesus told him that all of the professors of our churches are corrupt, not crooked. But hardly an acknowledgment that there is any truth to be found in any of our churches.

    “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.

    I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; THAT THOSE PROFESSORS WERE ALL CORRUPT; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

    D.O.K, it really is amazing that Mormons can't seem to see the contradition between Smith's all out indictment of all other churches from what he claimed he was told in his first vision with what the Mormon Church now says that our churches have at least some truth, but not the compleste picture.

  248. Kent,

    You need to learn what corrupt means. Something that is corrupt or corrupted is not necessarily corrupted in all its parts.

    One dictionary defines 'corrupt' as:

    cor·rupt    [kuh-ruhpt] Show – adjective

    1. guilty of dishonest practices, as bribery; lacking integrity; crooked: a corrupt judge.

    2. debased in character; depraved; perverted; wicked; evil: a corrupt society.

    3. made inferior by errors or alterations, as a text.

    4. infected; tainted.

    5. decayed; putrid.

    I would argue from the ecclesiastical historical record that Jesus' references to Christianity of the day as 'corrupt' that he intended the definitions defined at 3. and 4.

    If you belief that the Protestant Reformation was necessary then you also must believe that the main historical Christian Churches, eg: Roman and Greek Orthodox, were corrupted. If you do not believe they were corrupted you would either be a Roman catholic or a member of an Eastern Orthodox Church.

    Your statement that Jesus' declaration was an "all out indictment of all other churches" is a bucket so full of gaping holes that it will not hold water.

    “Smith flat out said that all of us, professors of our faith in all our churches, are crooked”

    As I wrote earlier, but which you chose to ignore, the words used by Jesus were not novel, they had been used before and are biblical.

    Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

    Isaiah 29:13;

    And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

    Luke 6:46.

    30 Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother, saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the Lord.

    31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.

    32 And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not.

    33 And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.

    Ezekiel 33:30–33;

    The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

    Isaiah 24:5

    Remember that Smith was quoting Jesus . Don’t kill the messenger [Too late: Smith was murdered by Christians in 1844!]

    If Jesus used the same or similar words before in history, what would prevent him from using them again if he considered it to be necessary? You cannot gag Jesus. He speaks when he wants and says what he wants.

    You do not believe it happened. Fine. You do not believe God can speak or that Jesus can appear as he has done in the past. Good for you, if that is the extent of your faith.

    But others have greater faith and they are entitled to act upon their faith without interference from present day Pharisees that proclaim their lips clean and their hand not lifted in mischief.

    I urge you to read the Bible and to become familiar with all its teachings, not simply two or three proof-texts that seem to you to lay out the whole mind and will of the Holy God, when they do not.

    http://www.yorkshiretales.com./allaboutmormonism

  249. Yeah Kent you need to learn from Ronnie, he is the ultimate authority on everything. You're an "unthinking person." If I compiled all the derogatory things Ronnie has said to people on here it would be pages long, in other words, as long as one of his own posts (I used the "in other words" from Smith himself). He doesn't address certain things either like what I said above about Smith fleeing because he knows its true. Then he dares call people anti-Mormon? He's anti-everyone who doesn't agree with him or acknowledge his imagined superiority.

    "Let me drone on for days and days, then when you've had enough, I'll post links to my website so you can bore yourself to death on more of my blathering" -Ronnie Bray

  250. I find it ironic that at the top of the page to the link Ronnie posted it says, "Since Christians are under Divine Obligation to speak the Truth and 'not bear false witness'"

    When Ronnie did exactly that, bore false witness, by claiming that when I say it is all about what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day and nothing we can do whatsoever contributes anything to our salvation, that I was saying that it gives people a license to sin as I have never said this at all. Ronnie was especially bearing false witness against me by even mentioning that anything I have ever said is in any way akin to Hilter justifying that what he did by murdering Jews as the work of God. By the way, it wouldn't have been false witness against my person if Ronnie had not added at the end of his point, "The difference between you and Hitler is that Hitler did not pretend to love his victims but you do."

    Again, this is what I have to say about the subject, "I believe that because we are saved by nothing but the blood of Jesus, we have a new heart because we are born again, a change of heart, that give us a desire to live moral lives to please our God so that we do good works because we are saved not to contribute anything to our salvation. But if anyone is living a sinful lifestyle as if they have a license to sin, that can be evidence that this person is not saved and is not a true believer in Christ at all despite their profession of faith."

    Contrast that with what Ronnie says I say below:

    "YOU say,

    “All you need to be saved is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. After that, you can please yourself what you do. You can lie, kill, be a fornicator, and God does not mind because you are saved and always will be.”

    Well, Kent, I hate to disappoint you, but I have read the Holy Bible and it does not give Christians a licence to ‘continue in sin’ because OSAS . The TRUE Bible says that Christians are to continue to believe and to live their lives in conformity to the will of God, the direction of the apostles and according to God’s moral code.

    Your version must be the one that Adolph Hitler followed when he claimed that by murdering Jews he as doing the work of the Lord. That would explain a lot. The difference between you and Hitler is that Hitler did not pretend to love his victims but you do."

    Ronnie, you still owe me an apology for breaking one of the ten commandments.

    Exodus 20:16

    16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

    in closing again:

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  251. Kent: I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that apology.

    DOK: Along the lines of comments not being addressed, I asked any Mormons to please explain the boast from Smith about him doing a greater work than Jesus with still no response, probably because there is no acceptable excuse.

  252. Some unthinking persons, however, with regard to the apostle’s statement:

    “We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law,”

    have thought him to mean that faith suffices to a man, even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works.

    Impossible it is that such a character should be deemed “a vessel of election” by the apostle, who, after declaring that “in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision,” adds at once, “but faith which worketh by love.”

    It is such faith which severs God’s faithful from unclean demons,–for even these “believe and tremble,” as the Apostle James says; but they do not do well. Therefore they possess not the faith by which the just man lives,–the faith which works by love in such wise, that God recompenses it according to its works with eternal life. But inasmuch as we have even our good works from God, from whom likewise comes our faith and our love, therefore the selfsame great teacher of the Gentiles has designated “eternal life” itself as His gracious “gift.”

    And hence there arises no small question, which must be solved by the Lord’s gift. If eternal life is rendered to good works, as the Scripture most openly declares:

    “Then He shall reward every man according to his works:”

    how can eternal life be a matter of grace, seeing that grace is not rendered to works, but is given gratuitously, as the apostle himself tells us:

    “To him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt;”

    and again:

    “There is a remnant saved according to the election of grace;” with these words immediately subjoined:

    “And if of grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace”?

    How, then, is eternal life by grace, when it is received from works? Does the apostle perchance not say that eternal life is a grace? Nay, he has so called it, with a clearness which none can possibly gainsay.

    It requires no acute intellect, but only an attentive reader, to discover this. For after saying, “The wages of sin is death,” he at once added, “The grace of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

    This question, then, seems to me to be by no means capable of solution, unless we understand that even those good works of ours, which are recompensed with eternal life, belong to the grace of God, because of what is said by the Lord Jesus:

    “Without me ye can do nothing.”

    And the apostle himself, after saying,

    “By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast;” saw, of course, the possibility that men would think from this statement that good works are NOT necessary to those who believe, but that faith alone suffices for them; and again, the possibility of men’s boasting of their good works, as if they were of themselves capable of performing them.

    To meet these opinions on both sides, he immediately added,

    “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

    What, then, is the purport of his saying, “Not of works, lest any man should boast,” while commending the grace of God? And then why does he afterwards, when giving a reason for using such words, say,

    “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works”?

    Why, therefore, does it run, “Not of works, lest any man should boast”? Now, hear and understand. “Not of works” is spoken of the works which you suppose have their origin in yourself alone; but you have to think of works for which God has moulded (that is, has formed and created) you. For of these he says,

    “We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works.”

    Now he does not here speak of that creation which made us human beings, but of that in reference to which one said who was already in full manhood,

    “Create in me a clean heart, O God;” concerning which also the apostle says,

    “Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God.”

    We are framed, therefore, that is, formed and created, “in the good works which” we have not ourselves prepared, but “God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

    sola fide is an incomplete corruption of the Christian Gospel of the NT.

  253. Leah, it really is kind of sad that Ronnie goes to such great lengths to get his points accross as I, for one, will not read anything he writes at all until I see in the first lines of a post from him an apology for the Hitler comment and then he goes and sights a link to his own Web Site as a source as if he thinks I would spend any time reading any of it other that a quick glance to see what the link was for.

    The self importance of some Mormons boggles the mind such as Joseph Smith adding a prophesy that predicted the coming of himself as a prophet to the end of Genesis in his own JST bible. Text that is nowhere to be found in any manuscript anywhere in the original language which makes these passages not a translation but an addition.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  254. Leah, have you ever noticed how Mormons, escpecially prominent Mormons, when they introduce themselves and give a testimony that it is like they are giving a resume of all the things they have done for their faith, offices they have held in the church, etc?

    Well Paul, who probably had a better resume than any of them counts his accompishments prior to his coming to faith in Christ as rubbish that amounted to nothing. Just the opposite of how Mormons present themselves.

    Philippians 3:1-9

    3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.

    2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

    7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith

    My point is, if Paul were alive now he would be talking who Jesus is and about what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day and he would not be talking about what he did.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  255. Great point on the prophecy in the JST, will any Mormon give an explanation for that? I'm still waiting on the excuse for the Smith quote about being greater than Jesus. Waiting…

    Mormon "self importance" as you call it Kent runs rampant in the LDS church, because at the heart of it is man worship. It is a man centered religion that uses Jesus' name as a cover up. It's all about how much you can do, how high up you can go, and men literally becoming gods. Can't get anymore man centered than that! That's also where the pride comes into play, they are giving a resume for themselves and how awesome they think they are because they actually believe they can merit becoming a god. Takes a lot of pride for that!

  256. Why should Christians be afraid of dogs? Is this a correct translation or does it have another meaning?

  257. Biblical inerrancy

    Biblical inerrancy is the doctrinal position that the Bible is accurate and totally free of error, that "Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact."[1] Some equate inerrancy with infallibility; others do not.[2][3]

    Conservative Christians generally believe that God inspired the authors and redactors of the Bible. Hence, they wrote material that was error-free. Some advocates of biblical inerrancy take the position that the authoritative Word of God has been preserved and passed down through time. Other advocates of biblical inerrancy take the position that although none of the original manuscripts currently exist, scholars are able to produce a product that is as near as possible to the original and that it can confidently be said to be the authoritative Word of God. They base their conclusions on scholars' comparison of the many thousands of good copies that have been found (such as the Dead Sea Scrolls), and by examining the thousands of citations of Scripture in the writings of the early Church Fathers.[4]

    Contents

    Another often-used adjective to characterize the Bible is "infallible". From dictionary definitions, Frame (2002) insists that this is a stronger term than "inerrant". "'Inerrant' means there are no errors; 'infallible' means there can be no errors."[5] Yet he agrees that "modern theologians insist on redefining that word also, so that it actually says less than 'inerrancy.'" Lindsell (1978) states that "The very nature of inspiration renders the Bible infallible, which means that it cannot deceive us. It is inerrant in that it is not false, mistaken, or defective."[6]

    In Judaism there had NEVER been a belief in the literal word of the Hebrew Bible, hence the co-existence of the Oral Torah.[7] Within Christianity, some mainstream Evangelical and Protestant groups adhere to the current inerrancy of Scripture as it reads today. However, some note that "Evangelical scholars … doubt that accepting the doctrine of biblical inerrancy is the best way to assert their belief in biblical authority."[8] The Roman Catholic view is summarized by the editors of the New American Bible:

    Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Providentissimus Deus . . . reaffirmed the decisions of the Council of Trent and emphasized that the Bible in all its parts was inspired and that a stated fact must be accepted as falling under inspiration, down to the most insignificant item; that is, the whole Bible is the Word of God.[9]

    In an article for The Catholic Study Bible, "The Bible in Catholic Life," Daniel J. Harrington, S.J. highlights the teachings found in the Second Vatican Council's document Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (Dei Verbum) which he says "should be taken as the authoritative climax of a long series of developments in the Church's attitude toward the Bible."[10] This conciliar document states:

    "Since, therefore, all that the inspired authors, or sacred writers, affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the sacred Scriptures."

    The document then cites 2 Timothy 3:16-17 . [11]

    The term "inerrancy" is often used by conservative theologians in some religions: in Christianity to refer to the Old and New Testaments, in Islam to refer to the Qur'an, and in other religions to refer to their own holy books.

    Some literalist or conservative Christians teach that the Bible is without error in every way in all matters: chronology, history, biology, sociology, psychology, politics, physics, math, art, and so on.[12]

    Other Christians believe that the Scriptures are always right (do not err) only in fulfilling their primary purpose: revealing God, God's vision, God's purposes, and God's good news to humanity.[13]

    Mainstream Judaism and Christian traditions hold that the Torah or Pentateuch of the Hebrew Bible was physically written by Moses — not God himself, although it has been copied many thousands of times by copyists who have allowed errors, or, some suggest, even forgeries in the text to accumulate.[14] According to this position, God originally spoke through a select person to reveal his purpose, character and plan for humanity. However the Bible does record some direct statements from God (i.e.,"Thus says the Lord …", "And God said …", etc.). The significance of most phrases, their parts, grammar, and occasionally individual words, letters and even pronunciation in the Hebrew Bible are the subject of many rabbinic discussions in the Talmud.

    As a result of the Scientific and Technological Revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries, various episodes of the Bible (for example the Noahide worldwide flood,[15] the creation in six days, and the creation of women from a man's rib) have in scientific circles been recognised as legendary. This led to an increasing questioning as to the veracity of Biblical texts. According to an article in Theology Today published in 1975, "There have been long periods in the history of the church when biblical inerrancy has not been a critical question. It has in fact been noted that only in the last two centuries can we legitimately speak of a formal doctrine of inerrancy. The arguments pro and con have filled many books, and almost anyone can join in the debate."[16]

    In the 1970s and '80s, however, the debate in theological circles, which centered on the issue of whether or not the Bible was infallible or both infallible and inerrant, came into the spotlight. Some notable Christian seminaries, such as Princeton Theological Seminary and Fuller Theological Seminary, were formally adopting the doctrine of infallibility while rejecting the doctrine of inerrancy.

    The other side of this debate focused largely around the magazine Christianity Today and the book entitled The Battle for the Bible by Harold Lindsell.[17] The author asserted that losing the doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture was the thread that would unravel the church. Conservative Christians rallied behind this idea, agreeing that once sola scriptura Christians disregard the ultimate truthfulness of the Bible, anything can become justifiable.

    There are over 5,600 Greek manuscripts containing all or part of the New Testament, as well as over 10,000 Latin manuscripts, and perhaps 500 other manuscripts of various other languages. Additionally, there are the Patristic writings which contain copious quotes, across the early centuries, of the scriptures.

    Most of these manuscripts date to the Middle Ages. The oldest complete copy of the New Testament, the Codex Sinaiticus, which includes two other books[18] not now included in the accepted NT canon, dates to the 4th century. The earliest fragment of a New Testament book is the Rylands Library Papyrus P52 which dates to the mid 2nd century and is the size of a business card. Very early manuscripts are rare.

    The average NT manuscript is about 200 pages, and in all, there are about 1.3 million pages of text. NO TWO MANUSCRIPTS ARE IDENTICAL! , except in the smallest fragments, and the many manuscripts which preserve New Testament texts differ among themselves in many respects, with some estimates of 200,000 to 300,000 DIFFERENCES among the various manuscripts.[19]

    According to Bart Ehrman,[20]

    "Most changes are careless errors that are easily recognized and corrected. Christian scribes often made mistakes simply because they were tired or inattentive or, sometimes, inept. Indeed, the single most common mistake in our manuscripts involves "orthography", significant for little more than showing that scribes in antiquity could spell no better than most of us can today. In addition, we have numerous manuscripts in which scribes have left out entire words, verses, or even pages of a book, presumably by accident. Sometimes scribes rearranged the words on the page, for example, by leaving out a word and then reinserting it later in the sentence."

    In the 2008 Greer-Heard debate series, noted New Testament scholars Bart Ehrman and Daniel B. Wallace discussed these variances in detail. Wallace mentioned that understanding the meaning of the number of variances is not as simple as looking at the number of variances, but one must consider also the number of manuscripts, the types of errors, and among the more serious discrepancies, what impact they do or do not have.[21]

    For hundreds of years, biblical and textual scholars have examined the manuscripts extensively. Since the eighteenth century, they have employed the techniques of textual criticism to reconstruct how the extant manuscripts of the New Testament texts might have descended, and to recover earlier recensions of the texts. However, King James Version (KJV)-only inerrantists often prefer the traditional texts (i.e., Textus Receptus which is the basis of KJV) used in their churches to modern attempts of reconstruction (i.e., Nestle-Aland Greek Text which is the basis of modern translations), arguing that the Holy Spirit is just as active in the preservation of the scriptures as in their creation. These inerrantists are found particularly in non-Protestant churches, but also a few Protestant groups hold such views.

    KJV-only inerrantist Jack Moorman says that at least 356 doctrinal passages are affected by the DIFFERENCES [DISAGREEMENTS] between the Textus Receptus and the Nestle-Aland Greek Text.[22]

    Some familiar examples of Gospel passages in the Textus Receptus thought to have been ADDED BY LATER INTERPOLATERS AND OMITTED in the Nestle Aland Greek Text include the Pericope Adulteræ, [Jn 7:53-8:11] the Comma Johanneum, [1 Jn 5:7–8] and the longer ending in Mark 16.[Mk 16:9-20]

    Many modern Bibles have footnotes to indicate areas where THERE IS DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN SOURCE DOCUMENTS. Bible commentaries offer discussions of these.

    Evangelical Christians generally ACCEPT ALL THE FINDINGS of textual criticism, and NEARLY ALL MODERN TRANSLATIONS including the popular NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION, work from a Greek New Testament based on modern textual criticism.

    Since this means that THE MANUSCRIPT COPIES ARE NOT PERFECT inerrancy is only applied to the original autographs (the manuscripts written by the original authors) RATHER THANM THE COPIES 1]

    For instance, the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy says,

    "We affirm that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture."[23] This is what Joseph Smith affirmed.

    Less commonly, more conservative views are held by some groups:

    King James Only inerrantists

    A faction of those in the odd ball "King James Only movement" rejects the whole discipline of textual criticism and holds that the translators of the King James Version English Bible were guided by God, and that the KJV thus is to be taken as the authoritative English Bible. However, those who hold this opinion do not extend it to the KJV translation into English of the Apocryphal books, which were produced along with the rest of the Authorized Version. Modern translations differ from the KJV on numerous points, sometimes resulting from access to different early texts, largely as a result of work in the field of textual criticism. Upholders of the KJV-only position nevertheless hold that the Protestant canon of KJV is itself an inspired text and therefore remains authoritative. The King James Only movement asserts that the 1611 KJV is the sole English translation free from error. Somehow they manage to extend this to the updated English bversion of the original and idiomatic Jacobean English in which the 12611 version was printed.

    Textus Receptus

    Similar to the King James Only view is the view that translations must be derived from the Textus Receptus in order to be considered inerrant. As the King James Version is an English translation, this leaves speakers of other languages in a difficult position, hence the belief in the Textus Receptus as the inerrant source text for translations to modern languages. For example, in Spanish-speaking cultures the commonly accepted "KJV-equivalent" is the Reina-Valera 1909 revision (with different groups accepting, in addition to the 1909 or in its place, the revisions of 1862 or 1960).

    It should also be noted that the New King James Version was also translated from the Textus Receptus.

    A number of reasons are offered by Christian theologians to justify Biblical inerrancy.

    Norman Geisler and William Nix (1986) claim that scriptural inerrancy is established by a number of observations and processes, which include:[12]

    The historical accuracy of the Bible

    The Bible's claims of its own inerrancy

    Church history and tradition

    One's individual experience with God

    Daniel B. Wallace, Professor of New Testament at Dallas Theological Seminary, divides the various evidences into two approaches – deductive and inductive approaches.[24]

    Deductive [guesswork] justifications

    The first deductive justification is that the Bible claims to be inspired by God (for instance "All Scripture [writing] is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"[2 Tim 3:16]) and because God is perfect, the Bible must also be perfect, and hence free from error.

    For instance, the statement of faith of the Evangelical Theological Society says, "The Bible alone, and the Bible in its entirety, is the Word of God written and is therefore inerrant in the [original] autographs [but not in the later copies or modern translations = just as Latter-day Saints aver!]."[25]

    Supportive of this, is the idea that God cannot lie. W J Mcrea writes:

    The Bible then makes two basic claims: it asserts unequivocally that God cannot lie, and that the Bible is the Word of God. It is primarily from a combination of these facts that the argument for inerrancy comes.[26]

    And Grenz has:

    Because God cannot lie and because Scripture is inspired by God, the bible must be wholly true. This syllogism may be valid for establishing inerrancy, but it cannot define the concept.[27]

    Also, from Geisler:

    Those who defend inerrancy are DEDUCTIVISTS pure and simple. They begin with certain ASSUMPTIONS about God and the Scriptures, namely, that God cannot lie and the Scriptures are the Word of God. From these ASSUMPTIONS inerrantists deduce that the Bible is without error.[28]

    A second reason offered is that Jesus and the apostles used the Old Testament in a way which assumes it is inerrant. For instance in Galatians 3:16, Paul bases his argument on the fact that the word "seed" in the Genesis reference to "Abraham and his seed", is singular rather than plural. This (as claimed) sets a precedent for inerrant interpretation down to the individual letters of the words.[29]

    Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as (referring) to many, but (rather) to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.[Gal 3:16]

    Similarly Jesus said that every minute detail of the Old Testament Law must be fulfilled,[Mt :18] indicating (it is claimed) that every detail must be correct.[29]

    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law [HE DOES NOT SAY 'THE WRITTEN LAW, FOR THE WRITTEN LAW COULD BE MISCOPIED AND ERROR], till all be fulfilled.

    — Mt 5:18, KJV

    Although in these verses Jesus and the apostles are only referring to the Old Testament, the argument extends to the New Testament writings, because 2 Peter 3:16 accords the status of 'Scripture' to New Testament writings also: "He (Paul) writes the same way in all his letters… which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures."[2 Pet 3:16] [30]

    Another deductive argument would be the strength of falsifiability. The argument is that Biblical inerrancy is a falsifiable stance (it can be proven false). In this case, if errors are proven in the Biblical text then the stance of Biblical inerrancy is itself false.

    Inductive [GUESSES] justifications

    Wallace describes the inductive approach by enlisting the Presbyterian theologian Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield:

    In his Inspiration and Authority of the Bible,[31] Warfield lays out an argument for inerrancy that has been virtually ignored by today's evangelicals. Essentially, he makes a case for inerrancy on the basis of inductive evidence, rather than deductive reasoning. Most evangelicals today follow E. J. Young's deductive approach toward bibliology, forgetting the great articulator of inerrancy. But Warfield starts with the evidence that the Bible is a historical document, rather than with the presupposition that it is inspired.[32]

    Inspiration

    In the Nicene Creed Christians confess their belief that the Holy Spirit "has spoken through the prophets." This creed has been normative for Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans and all mainline Protestant denominations except for those descended from the non-credal Stone-Campbell movement. As noted by Alister E. McGrath, "An important element in any discussion of the manner in which Scripture is inspired, and the significance which is attached to this, is 2 Timothy 3:16-17, which speaks of Scripture as 'God-breathed' (theopneustos)."

    According to McGrath, "the reformers did not see the issue of inspiration as linked with the absolute historical reliability or factual inerrancy of the biblical texts." He says, "The development of ideas of 'biblical infallibility' or 'inerrancy' within Protestantism can be traced to the United States in the middle of the nineteenth century."[33]

    People who believe in inerrancy think that the Bible does not merely contain the Word of God, but every word of it is, because of verbal inspiration, the direct, immediate word of God.[34] The Lutheran Apology of the Augsburg Confession identifies Holy Scripture with the Word of God[35] and calls the Holy Spirit the author of the Bible.[36] Because of this, Lutherans confess in the Formula of Concord, "we receive and embrace with our whole heart the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the pure, clear fountain of Israel."[37] Lutherans (and other Protestants) believe apocryphal books are not inspired nor written by prophets, and that they contain errors and were never included in the "Palestinian Canon" that Jesus and the Apostles are said to have used,[38] and therefore are not a part of Holy Scripture.[39] The prophetic and apostolic Scriptures are authentic as written by the prophets and apostles. A correct translation of their writings is God's Word because it has the same meaning as the original Hebrew and Greek.[39] A mistranslation is not God's word, and no human authority can invest it with divine authority.[39]

    However, the 19th century Anglican biblical scholar S.R. Driver held a contrary view, saying that, "as inspiration does not suppress the individuality of the biblical writers, so it does not altogether neutralise their human infirmities or confer upon them immunity from error."[40] Similarly, J.K. Mozley, an early 20th century Anglican theologian has argued:

    That the Bible is inspired is, indeed, a primary Christian conviction; it is from this that certain consequences have been drawn, such as infallibility and inerrancy, which retain their place in Christian thought because they are held to be bound up with the affirmation of inspiration. But the deductions can be rejected without any ambiguity as to the fact of inspiration.

    Neither 'fundamentalists' nor sceptics are to be followed at this point… the Bible is inspired because it is the adequate and indispensible vehicle of revelation; but inspiration does not amount to dictation by God.[41]

    Divine authority

    For a believer in biblical inerrancy, Holy Scripture is the Word of God, and carries the full authority of God. Every single statement of the Bible calls for instant and unqualified acceptance.[42] Every doctrine of the Bible is the teaching of God and therefore requires full agreement.[43] Every promise of the Bible calls for unshakable trust in its fulfillment.[44] Every command of the Bible is the directive of God himself and therefore demands willing observance.[45]

    Sufficiency

    According to some believers, the Bible contains everything that they need to know in order to obtain salvation and to live a Christian life,[46] and there are no deficiencies in Scripture that need to be filled with by tradition, pronouncements of the Pope, new revelations, or present-day development of doctrine.[47]

    Clarifications

    Accuracy

    Harold Lindsell points out that it is a "gross distortion" to state that people who believe in inerrancy suppose every statement made in the Bible is true (as opposed to accurate).[48]

    He indicates THERE ARE EXPRESSLY FALSE STATEMENTS IN THE BIBLE Bible which are reported accurately.[48] He notes that "All the Bible does, for example in the case of Satan, is to report what Satan actually said. Whether what he said was true or false is another matter. Christ stated that the devil is a liar."[48]

    Limitations

    Many who believe in the Inspiration of scripture teach that it is INFALLIBLE BUT NOT INERRANT.

    Those who subscribe to infallibility believe that what the scriptures say regarding matters of faith and Christian practice are wholly useful and true. Some denominations that teach infallibility hold that the historical or scientific details, which may be irrelevant to matters of faith and Christian practice, may contain errors.

    Those who believe in inerrancy hold that the scientific, geographic, and historic details of the scriptural texts in their original manuscripts are completely true and without error, though the scientific claims of scripture must be interpreted in the light of its phenomenological nature, not just with strict, clinical literality, which was foreign to historical narratives.[12]

    Proponents of biblical inerrancy generally do not teach that the Bible was dictated directly by God, but that God used the "distinctive personalities and literary styles of the writers" of scripture and that God's inspiration guided them to flawlessly project his message through their own language and personality.[49]

    Infallibility and inerrancy refer to the original texts of the Bible. And while conservative scholars acknowledge the potential for human error in transmission and translation, modern translations are considered to "faithfully represent the originals".[50]

    Scientific and historical criticism

    Biblical inerrancy has been criticized on the grounds that many statements, including, but not exclusively, history or science that are found in Scripture, if taken literally, rather than phenomenologically, are untenable or contradictory. Inerrancy is argued to be a falsifiable proposition: if the Bible is found to contain any mistakes or contradictions, the proposition of strict inerrancy has been refuted.

    Theological criticism

    Theological criticism refers to criticisms which are THAT THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH OR REQUIRE ITS OWN INERRANCY

    Proponents of biblical inerrancy often prefer the translations of 2 Timothy 3:16 that render it as "all scripture is given by inspiration of God," and they interpret this to mean that the whole Bible is inerrant.

    However, critics of this doctrine think that the Bible makes no direct claim to be inerrant or infallible.

    C. H. Dodd argues the same sentence can also be translated "Every inspired scripture is also useful…" nor does the verse define the Biblical canon.[51] In context, this passage refers only to the Old Testament writings understood to be scripture at the time it was written.[52] However, there are indications that Paul's writings were being considered, at least by the author of the Second Epistle of Peter,[2 Pet 3:16] as comparable to the Old Testament.[53]

    The idea that the Bible contains no mistakes is mainly justified by appeal to prooftexts that refer to its divine inspiration. However, this argument has been criticized as circular reasoning, because these statements only have to be accepted as true if the Bible is already thought to be inerrant.

    None of these texts say that because a text is inspired, it is therefore always correct in its historical statements.

    In the introduction to his book Credible Christianity, Anglican Bishop Hugh Montefiore, makes this comment:

    The doctrine of biblical inerrancy seems INHERENTLY IMPROBABLE for two reasons. Firstly, the Scriptures contain what seem to be EVIDENT ERRORS AND CONTRADICTIONS (although great ingenuity has been applied to explain these away).

    Secondly, the books of the Old and New Testaments did not gain their place within the "canon", or list of approved books, as soon as they were written. The Old Testament canon was not closed until late in the Apostolic age, and the New Testament canon was not finally closed until the fourth century.

    If all the Bible's contents were inerrant, one would have thought that this would have become apparent within a much shorter period.[54]

    Meaning of the "Word of God"

    Much debate over the kind of authority that should be accorded biblical texts centers on what is meant by the "Word of God". The term can refer to Christ himself as well as to the proclamation of his ministry as kerygma [PROCLAMATION].

    However, biblical inerrancy differs from this orthodoxy in viewing the Word of God to mean the entire text of the Bible when interpreted didactically as God's teaching.[55]

    The idea of the Bible itself as Word of God, as being itself God's revelation, is criticized in neo-orthodoxy. Here the Bible is seen as a unique witness to the people and deeds that do make up the Word of God. However, it is a wholly human witness.[56] All books of the Bible were written by human beings. Thus, whether the Bible is—in whole or in part[57]—the Word of God is not clear. However, critics argue that the Bible can still be construed as the "Word of God" in the sense that these authors' statements may have been representative of, and perhaps even directly influenced by, God's own knowledge.

    There is only one instance in the Bible where the phrase "the Word of God" refers to something "written". The reference is to the Decalogue. However, most of the other references are to reported speech that is preserved in the Bible.

    The New Testament also contains a number of statements which refer to passages from the Old Testament as God's words, for instance Romans 3:2 (which says that the Jews have been "entrusted with the very words of God"), or the book of Hebrews, which often prefaces Old Testament quotations with words such as "God says." The Bible also contains words spoken by human beings about God, such as Eliphaz (Job 42:7) and the prayers and songs of the Psalter. That these are God's words addressed to us was at the root of a lively medieval controversy.[58]

    The idea of THE WORD OF GOD IS MORE THAN GOD is encountered in scripture, than that every line of scripture is a statement made by God.[59]

    While the phrase "the Word of God" is never applied to the modern Bible within the Bible itself, supporters of inerrancy argue that that is simply because the Biblical canon was not closed. In 1 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul wrote to the church in Thessalonica "when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God."

    Translation

    Translation has given rise to a number of issues, as the original languages are often quite different in grammar as well as word meaning. While the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy states that INERRANCY ONLY APPLIES TO THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE, some believers trust their own translation to be the accurate one.

    One such group of believers is known as the King James Only movement. For readability, clarity, or other reasons, translators may choose different wording or sentence structure, and some translations may choose to paraphrase passages. Because some of the words in the original language have AMBIGUOUS OR DIFFICULT TO TRANSLATE meanings, debates over the correct interpretation occur.

    Criticisms are also sometimes raised because of inconsistencies arising between different English translations of the Hebrew or Greek text. Some Christian interpretations are criticized for reflecting specific doctrinal bias.

    One translation problem concerns the New Testament assertion that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin. If the Bible were inerrant, then this would be true. However, critics have suggested that the use of the word virgin may have been merely a translation error.

    Matthew 1:22-1:23 reads: "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 'The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel'—which means, 'God with us.'" Critics have argued that Matthew was referring to the prophet Isaiah, but the Greek text he was using was mistaken in its translation of the word almah ("עלמה") [YOUNG GIRL] in Isaiah 7:14:

    Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin [(almah)] shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    On this point, Browning's A Dictionary of the Bible states that in the Septuagint, "the Greek parthenos was used to translate the Hebrew almah, which means a 'young woman'".[60] Also, "As early as the 2nd cent. CE, the Jewish controversialist, Trypho was pointing out that the Hebrew did not mean a virgin." [61] The dictionary also notes that "the earliest writers of the [New Testament] (Mark and Paul) show no knowledge of such a virginal conception."

    Another writer, David Strauss in The Life of Jesus, has: "… [the question] ought to be decided by the fact that the word does not signify an immaculate, but a marriageable young woman." He suggests that Isaiah was referring to events of his own time, and that the young woman in question may have been "perhaps the prophet's own wife."[62]

    Notes

    ^ a b Grudem, Wayne A. (1994). Systematic theology: an introduction to biblical doctrine. Leicester: Inter-Varsity Press. p. 90. ISBN 978-0-85110-652-6. OCLC 29952151

    .

    ^ McKim, DK, Westminster dictionary of theological terms, Westminster John Knox Press, 1996.

    ^ Geisler, N. L. (ed), Inerrancy, Zondervan, 1980, p. 22. "The trouble is that such a distinction is nowhere to be found in Jesus' own teaching. and seems to be precluded by His testimony both to the unqualified historical accuracy and the inspiration of the Old Testament. .. The attempt to discriminate … seems to be a product of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries."

    ^ McCann, Vincent. The Bible: Inerrant and Infallible? Spotlight Ministries, 2001. [1]

    ^ Frame, John M. "Is the Bible Inerrant?" IIIM Magazine Online, Volume 4, Number 19, May 13 to May 20, 2002 [2]

    ^ Lindsell, Harold. The Battle for the Bible. Zondervan, 1978, p.31. ISBN 978-0-310-27681-4

    ^ Schimmel, H. Chaim, The Oral Law: The rabbinic contribution to Torah Shebe'al Peh, 2nd, revised ed., Feldheim Publishers, Jerusalem, 1996, pp.19-21

    ^ Encyclopædia Britannica, "Evangelicalism".

    ^ "Origin, Inspiration, and History of the Bible" preface in New American Bible, Church Edition (Wichita, KS: Fireside Bible Publishers, 2005-2006), p. xxii, Copyright © Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, ISBN 1-55665-493-6, ISBN 978-1-55665-490-9.

    ^ Harrington, Daniel J., "The Bible in Catholic Life," in The Catholic Study Bible, Donald Senior, General Editor, Oxford University Press, 1990.

    ^ Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, Vatican Council II: The Conciliar and Post-Conciliar Documents, Costello Publishing, 1975.

    ^ a b c Geisler & Nix (1986). A General Introduction to the Bible. Moody Press, Chicago. ISBN 0-8024-2916-5.

    ^ Robinson, B.A. "Inerrancy: Is the Bible free of error? All points of view." Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance, 2008-SEP-01. Web: 25 January 2010. Inerrancy: Is the Bible free of error?'

    ^ Tov, Emanuel, Textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible, Uitgeverij Van Gorcum, 2001, p.213

    ^ Plimer, Ian (1994), Telling Lies for God: Reason vs Creationism, Random House

    ^ Coleman (1975). "Biblical Inerrancy: Are We Going Anywhere?". Theology Today 31 (4).

    ^ Lindsell, Harold. The Battle for the Bible. Zondervan, 1978. ISBN 978-0-310-27681-4

    ^ The Epistle of Barnabas and The Shepherd of Hermas

    ^ See Ehrman, Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew, p. 219

    ^ See Ehrman, Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew, p. 220

    ^ Stewart, Robert B., ed. (2011), The Reliability of the New Testament: Bart Ehrman and Daniel Wallace in Dialogue, Minneapolis, Minnesota: Fortress Press, ISBN 978-0-8006-9773-0, OCLC 646121910

    ^ Jack Moorman, Missing In Modern Bibles – Is the Full Story Being Told?, Bible for Today, 1989, 83 pages

    ^ "Chicago Statement on Biblical Innerancy"

    Evangelical Theological Society web site

    ^ McRea, WJ, A book to die for, Clements publishing, 2002.

    ^ Grenz, SJ, Theology for the community of God, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2000

    ^ Geisler, NL, Inerrancy, Zondervan, 1980, p271.

    ^ a b "Bible, Inerrancy and Infallibility of", by P.D.Feinberg, in Evangelical Dictionary of Theology (Baker, 1984, Ed. W.Elwell)

    ^ Bible, Inspiration of, by Nigel M. de S. Cameron, in "Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology", Edited by Walter A. Elwell, Baker, 1996

    ^ Warfield, Benjamin (1948). Craig, Samuel. ed. The Inspiration and Authority of the Bible. with introduction by Cornelius Van Til (1st ed.). Phillipsburg, New Jersey: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company. ISBN 978-0-87552-527-3. OCLC 223791198

    ^ Daniel B. Wallace. "My Take on Inerrancy". http://WWW.bible.com. Retrieved 17 November 2010.

    ^ McGrath, Alister E., Christian Theology: An Introduction, Oxford: Blackwell Publishers, 1994; 3rd ed. 2001. p. 176.

    ^ 2 Timothy 3:16, 1 Corinthians 2:13, 1 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 3:2 2 Peter 1:21 2 Samuel 23:2, Hebrews 1:1, John 10:35, John 16:13; John 17:17;

    JOHN, Engelder, Theodore E.W. (1934). Popular Symbolics: The Doctrines of the Churches of Christendom and of Other Religious Bodies Examined in the Light of Scripture. Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House. p. 26.

    ^ "God's Word, or Holy Scripture" from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Article II, of Original Sin

    ^ "the Scripture of the Holy Ghost." Apology to the Augsburg Confession, Preface, 9

    ^ The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord, "Rule and Norm", 3.

    ^ See Bible, Canon in the Christian Cyclopedia

    ^ a b c Engelder, Theodore E.W. (1934). Popular Symbolics: The Doctrines of the Churches of Christendom and Of Other Religious Bodies Examined in the Light of Scripture. Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House. p. 27.

    ^ Driver, S.R., Church Congress speech, cited in F.W. Farrar, The Bible: Its Meaning and Supremacy, Longmans, Green, and Co., 1897.

    ^ Mozley, J.K., "The Bible: Its Unity, Inspiration, and Authority," in W.R. Matthews, ed., The Christian Faith: Essays in Explanation and Defense, Harper and Bros., 1936. pp. 58-59.

    ^ Matthew 4:3, Luke 4:3, Genesis 3:1, John 10:35, Luke 24:25, Psalm 119:140, Psalm 119:167 , Engelder, Theodore E.W. (1934). Popular Symbolics: The Doctrines of the Churches of Christendom and Of Other Religious Bodies Examined in the Light of Scripture. Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House. p. 27., Graebner, Augustus Lawrence (1910). Outlines Of Doctrinal Theology. Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House. pp. 8–9.

    ^ 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Luke 24:25-27, Luke 16:29-31, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, Jeremiah 8:9, Jeremiah 23:26, Isaiah 8:19-20, 1 Corinthians 14:37, Galatians 1:8, Acts 17:11, Acts 15:14-15, Graebner, Augustus Lawrence (1910). Outlines Of Doctrinal Theology. Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House. pp. 8–10.

    ^ 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Titus 1:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Peter 1:19, Graebner, Augustus Lawrence (1910). Outlines Of Doctrinal Theology. Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House. pp. 8–9.

    ^ Deuteronomy 12:32, 5:9-10, James 2:10, Joshua 1:8, Luke 16:29, 2 Timothy 3:16, Graebner, Auustus Lawrence (1910). Outlines Of Doctrinal Theology. Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House. pp. 8–11.

    ^ 2 Timothy 3:15-17, John 5:39, 17:20, Psalm 19:7-8, Engelder, Theodore E.W. (1934). Popular Symbolics: The Doctrines of the Churches of Christendom and Of Other Religious Bodies Examined in the Light of Scripture. Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House. p. 28.

    ^ Isaiah 8:20, Luke 16:29-31, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Graebner, Augustus Lawrence (1910). Outlines Of Doctrinal Theology. Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House. p. 13.[dead link], Engelder, Theodore E.W. (1934). Popular Symbolics: The Doctrines of the Churches of Christendom and Of Other Religious Bodies Examined in the Light of Scripture. Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House. p. 28.

    ^ a b c Lindsell, Harold. "The Battle for the Bible", Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA (1976), pg. 38.

    ^ Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, Article VIII

    ^ Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, Article X

    ^ Dodd, C. H. The Authority of the Bible, London, 1960. p. 25.

    ^ New Jerusalem Bible, study edition, page 1967, DLT 1994

    ^ New Jerusalem Bible, page 2010, footnote (i) DLT 1985

    ^ Montefiore, Hugh. Credible Christianity: The Gospel in Contemporary Society, London: Mowbray, 1993; Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1994. p. 5. ISBN 0-8028-3768-9

    ^ James Barr, Fundamentalism p.72ff, SCM 1977.

    ^ James Barr, Fundamentalism pp.218-219 SCM 1977

    ^ Exodus claims of the Ethical Decalogue and Ritual Decalogue that these are God's word.

    ^ Uriel Simon, "Four Approaches to the Book of Psalms" chap. 1

    ^ Alexander Ryrie, "Deliver Us From Evil", DLT 2004

    ^ Browning, WRF, A dictionary of the Bible, Oxford University Press, 2004. Entry for virgin birth.

    ^ See also, Dialogue of Justin Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew, LXIII

    ^ Strauss, DF., The life of Jesus, Calvin Blanchard, NY, 1860, p. 114.

    References

    Bart D. Ehrman, 2003. Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew. Oxford University Press, Inc. ISBN 0-19-518249-9

    Charles Caldwell Ryrie (1981). What you should know about inerrancy. ISBN 0-8024-8785-8

    Dei Verbum

    Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (1965)

    Ethelbert W.Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Book House, 1970.

    Gleason Archer, 2001. New Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties. ISBN 0-310-24146-4

    Finkelstein, Israel; Silberman, Neil Asher (2001).

    The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts. New York: Simon and Schuster. ISBN 0-7432-2338-1. http://books.google.com/books?lr=&q=Finkelste

    .

    Herzog, Ze'ev. "Deconstructing the walls of Jericho." Ha'aretz October 29, 1999. Web: Deconstructing the walls of Jericho

    .

    John Walvoord (1990). What We Believe: Understanding and Applying the Basics of Christian Life. ISBN 0-929239-31-8

    Kathleen C. Boone: The Bible Tells Them So: The Discourse of Protestant Fundamentalism, State Univ of New York Press 1989, ISBN 0-88706-895-2

    N. T. Wright, The Last Word: Beyond Bible Wars to a New Understanding of the Authority of Scripture. Harper-San Francisco, 2005. ISBN 0-06-081609-4

    Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, (1999) When Critics Ask: A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties.

    Norman Geisler and William E. Nix., A General Introduction to the Bible, Moody Publishers; Rev&Expndd edition (August 1986), ISBN 0-8024-2916-5

    Norman Geisler, ed. (1980). Inerrancy. ISBN 0-310-39281-0.

    Sproul, R. C.. Hath God Said? (video series

    ).

    Walter C. Kaiser, Peter H. Davids, F. F. Bruce, Manfred T. Brauch. (1996). Hard Sayings of the Bible

    Warfield, B. B. (1977 reprint). Inspiration and Authority of Bible, with a lengthy introductory essay by Cornelius Van Til. ISBN 0-8010-9586-7.

    (C) Wikipedia – Biblical Inerrancy – A disputed doctrine

  258. Leah, has Ronnie answered your question about Joseph Smith's boast, about DOK's comment that Joseph Smith didn't willingly die for his cause as a lamb led to the slaughter, as a lamb doesn't fire a gun at the people who are slaughering it as Smith did, or about Joseph Smith adding to the text of Genesis in his JST version, he didn't translate those additional passages as they weren't in the original language, when he predicted his own coming as a prophet?

    As I am not reading anything he posts unless I see an apology in the first few lines of one of his posts for bearng false witness against me by his Hitler comment concerning me.

    First of all Ronnie bore false witness by misrepresenting my position on being saved solely by the blood of Jesus as I have never said it gives anyone a license to sin.

    Again, this is what I have to say about the subject, “I believe that because we are saved by nothing but the blood of Jesus, we have a new heart because we are born again, a change of heart, that give us a desire to live moral lives to please our God so that we do good works because we are saved not to contribute anything to our salvation. But if anyone is living a sinful lifestyle as if they have a license to sin, that can be evidence that this person is not saved and is not a true believer in Christ at all despite their profession of faith.”

    I would like to add to this that is is a good idea to not tempt the Lord their God by living sinful lifestyles as if they have a license to sin.

    Contrast that with what Ronnie says I say below:

    “YOU say,

    “All you need to be saved is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. After that, you can please yourself what you do. You can lie, kill, be a fornicator, and God does not mind because you are saved and always will be.”

    Well, Kent, I hate to disappoint you, but I have read the Holy Bible and it does not give Christians a licence to ‘continue in sin’ because OSAS . The TRUE Bible says that Christians are to continue to believe and to live their lives in conformity to the will of God, the direction of the apostles and according to God’s moral code.

    Your version must be the one that Adolph Hitler followed when he claimed that by murdering Jews he as doing the work of the Lord. That would explain a lot. The difference between you and Hitler is that Hitler did not pretend to love his victims but you do.”

    Ronnie, especially, bore false witness against my person by the last sentence, "The difference between you and Hitler is that Hitler did not pretend to love his victims but you do.” It wouldn't have been false witness against my person if he hadn't added this last sentence as he would have just been misrepresenting my postition.

    Exodus 20:16

    16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

    Mormons, I do what I do out of concern for you, I do care about your well being and while you very likely don't consider my concern for your eternal destination is warranted, please know that my heart is genuine in this regard and anyone can see in that context that Ronnie's Hitler comment is wrong and he needs to repent and apologize to me.

    in closing again:

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  259. Sorry Kent, I don't read his posts either! The most I get through is maybe skim first paragraph to see if he apologized to you, then I stop reading :)

  260. WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

    .

    Remarkable inconsistencies appear!

    If salvation is solely by the blood of Jesus, then solely by faith is an heresy!

    Can a person obtain faith through their own efforts to believe, or is it only granted as a gift from God?

    If the latter, why condemn those that have not been granted the gift by God?

    .

  261. Kent, Leah doesn't ask me questions.

    Like you she does not read my posts and has sworn, like you, never to respond to anything I write.

    .

  262. I said, "Leah, has Ronnie answered your question about Joseph Smith’s boast, about DOK’s comment that Joseph Smith didn’t willingly die for his cause as a lamb led to the slaughter, as a lamb doesn’t fire a gun at the people who are slaughering it as Smith did, or about Joseph Smith adding to the text of Genesis in his JST version, he didn’t translate those additional passages as they weren’t in the original language, when he predicted his own coming as a prophet?

    As I am not reading anything he posts unless I see an apology in the first few lines of one of his posts for bearng false witness against me by his Hitler comment concerning me."

    Leah responded, "Sorry Kent, I don’t read his posts either! The most I get through is maybe skim first paragraph to see if he apologized to you, then I stop reading."

    So do any other Mormons want to answer our questions? We aren't reading anything Ronnie until he apologizes.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  263. I do not apologise for things I have not said.

  264. .

    Neither am I obliged to answer questions that have been fully and robustly answered and refuted decades ago.

  265. ?

  266. "Neither am I obliged to answer questions that have been fully and robustly answered and refuted decades ago" is Mormon speak for "I don't know the answer and stop bringing up embarrassing things from our history. It makes us uncomfortable."

    "I do not apologise for things I have not said" is Mormon speak for "I have way to much pride, think too highly of myself, and would never lower myself to the level of admitting I have ever been wrong. I'm going to be a god one day, and I can't go around saying I make mistakes!"

  267. Ronnie has been contensious from the start as shown by his response to the original topic which was a reasonable question as to why Joseph Smith could drink wine but others cannot.

    Here is the question that was posed:

    “I find it interesting that the day before he was killed that Joseph Smith drank wine and don’t Mormons have to be temple worthy to worship in the temple and one of the things that make them temple worthy is that they can’t drink alcohollic beverages? So wouldn’t that make Smith not be able to enter the Celestial Kingdom when he passed from this earth if he wasn’t temple worthy at the time of his death?”

    Joshua, the owner of this blog, responded in a reasonable manner by stating that the prohibition on drinking wine wasn't in place yet as the time of Smith's passing which to me doesn't explain how Joseph Smith, who Mormons say we need his consent to enter into the mansion where God and Jesus Christ are, is held to a lower standard than others regarding being temple worthy, but at least it was a cordial response to a reasonable question.

    Ronnie, on the other hand, responded in a contensious way by saying this, "I am constantly surprised at the petty nature of some critics that seek to ‘make a man an offender for a word.”

    Could we ask correspondents to raise the level of debate?"

    So by saying a legtimate question is petty Ronnie lowered the level of the debate by being petty and contensious himself.

    Joshua, the owner of this blog and obviously a Mormon, and I have agreed on virtually nothing for over two years now but we have always done so in a respectable manner to each other. Which shows we can disagree but still have a constructive dialogue.

    Mormons, even your own past leader Brigham Young said to test the Mormon religion by using the Bible so that is what I and others here do, we test (question) Mormonism using the Bible as our source. So I challenge Mormons to do exactly that, test, as your leader Young said, Mormonism by using the Bible and, yes, you are allowed to do so.

    I believe though if you whole heartedly test Mormonism by using the Bible as your guide that it will open up even more questions about your religion than it will answer.

    But we can agree to disagree about this without resorting to saying that others such as myself who disagree with you are doing something diabolical or underhanded.

    Any reasonable person can see that Ronnie's Hitler comment towards me was wrong but until he apologizes to me, we have nothing more to say to each other.

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  268. D.O.K, the problem with some Mormons is that they don't like it when others don't recognize, how they see themselves, as being on a higher spiritual level than others are and that we don't see them as our teachers so that somehow we aren't giving them the respect that they think is due to them, that we only go by the information they present not by who they see themselves as being

    I see the same problem when conversing with Jehovah's Witnesses as they don't like it either when we don't see them as our teachers. I don't think this is a coincidence as being prideful is being prideful.

    However, God is not a respecter of persons as we are all one, we are all equal, in Chirst, so no one is above anyone else. There is no such person who is on a higher level than anyone else, save Jesus Christ Himself.

    Galatians 3:28

    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    in closing again:

    WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE!

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

    BY NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

  269. "Joshua, the owner of this blog and obviously a Mormon, and I have agreed on virtually nothing for over two years now but we have always done so in a respectable manner to each other. Which shows we can disagree but still have a constructive dialogue."

    Kent – I had the same experience with Joshua. I enjoyed picking his brain and getting perspective from a Mormon mind without being attacked personally or him playing the persecution card (those are the 2 main responses I usually get from Mormons). I'd throw out all kinds of quotes and teachings and he wouldn't get offended but would explain them. I didn't agree, but I respected his opinions. But he hasn't been on here in such a long time, so I am unsubscribing to all posts and getting off here. It has been nothing but contention, insults, whining, and 10 page long droning from the others on here and I have not been able to have a civil conversation with any other Mormons but Joshua. We seem to be speaking completely different languages, as I will say something and Mormons hear me saying something COMPLETELY different! I don't get how they can distort my words to such a degree? I'm sure you've experienced it too, that's how you got compared to Hitler of all people! Maybe I will venture back in the future but this has become completely unproductive for me as of now. Peace to you my brother and Godspeed! :)

  270. That is very interesting, You’re an overly professional blogger. I’ve joined your feed and look forward to looking for more of your fantastic post. Additionally, I have shared your site in my social networks

  271. Ahhh….so much time has been spent on this.

    Pretty much how I figure it is that it’s easier to not put your hand where the shark’s mouth is.

    Alcohol has always been prevalent, not drinking it seems common sense. It was essential to the growth of many cultures.

    But, each thing on this Earth has a purpose and we must remember that prophets are humans. They are not perfect. They make plenty of mistakes.

    But what I do believe is that they’re trying to do their best. I’m not saying to be a sheeple…I’m just saying they mess up like everyone else.

    Plus, we know how bad alcohol can be…so, it is pretty wise and you don’t get incapacitated. Plus, you don’t spend that extra money.

    The law of the tithe was different in that day as well, but the tenth was more than just a number. It was symbolic.

    Also, I think if God is up there drinking a pint, He prolly would be able to avoid being tipsy. At least, I’d imagine so.

  272. And the church has wineries…

  273. Yeh! Right! This is absolute nonsense

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